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Are we headed for an epic bear market?

scooterbug44 avatar
SoWal Expert
33,675 views
By Jon Markam

Satyajit Das is laughing. It appears I have said something very funny, but I have no idea what it was. My only clue is that the laugh sounds somewhat pitying. One of the world's leading experts on credit derivatives, Das is the author of a 4,200-page reference work on the subject, among a half-dozen other tomes. As a developer and marketer of the exotic instruments himself over the past 30 years. He seemed like the ideal industry insider to help us get to the bottom of the recent debt crunch -- and I expected him to defend and explain the practice.
I started by asking the Calcutta-born Australian whether the credit crisis was in what Americans would call the "third inning." This was pretty amusing, it seemed, judging from the laughter. So I tried again. "Second inning?" More laughter. "First?" Still too optimistic. Das, who knows as much about global money flows as anyone in the world, stopped chuckling long enough to suggest that we're actually still in the middle of the national anthem before a game destined to go into extra innings. And it won't end well for the global economy.

An epic bear market
Das is pretty droll for a math whiz, but his message is dead serious. He thinks we're on the verge of a bear market of epic proportions. The cause: Massive levels of debt underlying the world economy system are about to unwind in a profound and persistent way.

He's not sure if it will play out like the 13-year decline of 90% in Japan from 1990 to 2003 that followed the bursting of a credit bubble there, or like the 15-year flat spot in the U.S. market from 1960 to 1975. But either way, he foresees hard times as an optimistic era of too much liquidity, too much leverage and too much financial engineering slowly and inevitably deflates.
Like an ex-mobster turning state's witness, Das has turned his back on his old pals in the derivatives biz to warn anyone who will listen -- mostly banks and hedge funds that pay him consulting fees -- that the jig is up.
Rather than joining the crowd that blames the mess on American slobs who took on more mortgage debt than they could afford and have endangered the world by stiffing lenders, he points a finger at three parties: regulators who stood by as U.S. banks developed ingenious but dangerous ways of shifting trillions of dollars of credit risk off their balance sheets and into the hands of unsophisticated foreign investors; hedge and pension fund managers who gorged on high-yield debt instruments they didn't understand; and financial engineers who built towers of "securitized" debt with math models that were fundamentally flawed.

Investors are abuzz over the Fed?s interest-rate decision, but the Federal Reserve can?t fix everything, cautions MSN Money?s Jim Jubak. Lower interest rates alone won?t boost confidence in the debt market. "Defaulting middle-class U.S. homeowners are blamed, but they are merely a pawn in the game," he says. "Those loans were invented so that hedge funds would have high-yield debt to buy."

The liquidity factory
Das' view sounds cynical, but it makes sense if you stop thinking about mortgages as a way for people to finance houses and think about them instead as a way for lenders to generate cash flow and create collateral during an era of a flat interest-rate curve.Although subprime U.S. loans seem like small change in the context of the multitrillion-dollar debt market, it turns out these high-yield instruments were an important part of the machine that Das calls the global "liquidity factory." Just like a small amount of gasoline can power an entire truck given the right combination of spark plugs, pistons and transmission, subprime loans became the fuel that underlays derivative securities many, many times their size.

Here's how it worked: In olden days, like 10 years ago, banks wrote and funded their own loans. In the new game, Das points out, banks "originate" loans, "warehouse" them on their balance sheet for a brief time, then "distribute" them to investors by packaging them into derivatives called collateralized debt obligations, or CDOs, and similar instruments. In this scheme, banks don't need to tie up as much capital, so they can put more money out on loan. The more loans that were sold, the more they could use as collateral for more loans, so credit standards were lowered to get more paper out the door -- a task that was accelerated in recent years via fly-by-night brokers now accused of predatory lending practices. Buyers of these credit risks in CDO form were insurance companies, pension funds and hedge-fund managers from Bonn to Beijing. Because money was readily available at low interest rates in Japan and the United States, these managers leveraged up their bets by buying the CDOs with borrowed funds.

So if you follow the bouncing ball, borrowed money bought borrowed money. And then because they had the blessing of credit-ratings agencies relying on mathematical models suggesting that they would rarely default, these CDOs were in turn used as collateral to do more borrowing.
In this way, Das points out, credit risk moved from banks, where it was regulated and observable, to places where it was less regulated and difficult to identify.

Turning $1 into $20
The liquidity factory was self-perpetuating and seemingly unstoppable. As assets bought with borrowed money rose in value, players could borrow more money against them, and it thus seemed logical to borrow even more to increase returns. Bankers figured out how to strip money out of existing assets to do so, much as a homeowner might strip equity from his house to buy another house. These triple-borrowed assets were then in turn increasingly used as collateral for commercial paper -- the short-term borrowings of banks and corporations -- which was purchased by supposedly low-risk money market funds.
According to Das' figures, up to 53% of the $2.2 trillion commercial paper in the U.S. market is now asset-backed, with about 50% of that in mortgages.
When you add it all up, according to Das' research, a single dollar of "real" capital supports $20 to $30 of loans. This spiral of borrowing on an increasingly thin base of real assets, writ large and in nearly infinite variety, ultimately created a world in which derivatives outstanding earlier this year stood at $485 trillion -- or eight times total global gross domestic product of $60 trillion. Without a central governmental authority keeping tabs on these cross-border flows and ensuring a standard of record-keeping and quality, investors increasingly didn't know what they were buying or what any given security was really worth.

A painful unwinding
Now here is where the U.S. mortgage holder shows up again. As subprime loan default rates doubled, in contravention of what the models forecast, the CDOs those mortgages backed began to collapse. Because they were so hard to value, banks and funds started looking at all CDOs and other paper backed by mortgages with suspicion, and refused to accept them as collateral for the sort of short-term borrowing that underpins today's money markets. Through late last month, according to Das, as much as $300 billion in leveraged finance loans had been "orphaned," which means that they can't be sold off or used as collateral.

Investors are abuzz over the Fed?s interest-rate decision, but the Federal Reserve can?t fix everything, cautions MSN Money?s Jim Jubak. Lower interest rates alone won?t boost confidence in the debt market.

One of the wonders of leverage is that it amplifies losses on the way down just as it amplifies gains on the way up. The more an asset that is bought with borrowed money falls in value, the more you have to sell other stuff to fulfill the loan-to-value covenants. It's a vicious cycle. In this context, banks' objective was to prevent customers from selling their derivates at a discount because they would then have to mark down the value of all the other assets in the debt chain, an event that would lead to the need to make margin calls on customers already thin on cash.

Now it may seem hard to believe, but much of the past few years' advance in the stock market was underwritten by CDO-type instruments which go under the heading of "structured finance." I'm talking about private-equity takeovers, leveraged buyouts and corporate stock buybacks -- the works.
So to the extent that the structured finance market is coming undone, not only will those pillars of strength for equities be knocked away, but many recent deals that were predicated on the easy availability of money will likely also go bust, Das says. That is why he considers the current market volatility much more profound than a simple "correction" in prices. He sees it as a gigantic liquidity bubble unwinding -- a process that can take a long, long time.

While you might think that the U.S. Federal Reserve can help prevent disaster by lowering interest rates dramatically, as they did Wednesday, the evidence is not at all clear. The problem, after all, is not the amount of money in the system but the fact that buyers are in the process of rejecting the entire new risk-transfer model and its associated leverage and counterparty risks. Lower rates will not help that. "At best," Das says, "they help smooth the transition."

The fine print
Das notes that Japan in the 1990s lowered interest rates to zero and the country still suffered through a prolonged recession. His timetable for the start of the next serious phase of the unwinding is later this year or early 2008. . . . Das' most readable book for laypeople is "Traders, Guns & Money," an amusing expos? of high finance, published last year. Das occasionally writes a blog at his publisher's Web site. Also available are a boxed set of his reference books on derivatives and his book specifically on CDOs. . . . Perhaps the oddest line on the subject by a world leader was uttered by Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva, the president of Brazil. Asked if he was worried about the effects of the credit crunch in his country, he dismissively called it "an eminently American crisis" caused by people trying to make a lot of "third-class money." . . . CDOs were first widely used back in the late 1980s by Drexel Burnham Lambert junk-bond king Michael Milken to sell off damaged and previously unsellable debt in a way that was more palatable to customers.

Replies

161
30ashopper avatar
SoWal Insider
#77
comedy relief -

AAbsolute avatar
Banned
#78
It is rather satisfying to see those who were "living large" while I did without and planned for the future get their comeuppance.

Too bad they have to drag the economy down with them!

In the words of Sowal Santiago, "It's called business"

You mean you don't agree?
Pirate avatar
Beach Fanatic
#79
Buy the REIT stock that produces income from established properties and not from REITs who are highly leveraged. Or follow the yellow bricked URL. :rolling:

http://tinyurl.com/4ae45x

Time will tell.
ClintClint avatar
Beach Fanatic
#80
Equity Eradication, Evisceration, Ejection, Emasculation, Extraction, Emaciation, Eviction
The Bull has been castrated!
Now, the good news. The very fact that I posted this should be a great contraindicator. Today, today should be the bottom at 11:30 A.M.
AAbsolute avatar
Banned
#81
Hang in there, Clint. Worst Worst Worst case is :

SPX 945 closed 1106

DJII 8400 closed 10365

Who knows , we may be there by Thursday !!!!!!


We have hit your worst, worst worst case: So where do we go from here? 10/10/08
Beach Comber
#82
What's the chance the our government can peacefully merge or acquire another country? Maybe we can work our way out of this.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2079rank.html

can someone explain to me the difference between 'world debt-external' and the total globalized CDO's that are detailed in the first original article. the first article says that the global CDO's total 485 trillion, and the cia site states our world's debt at only 53 trillion as of 2004.....
Beach Fanatic
#83
quote: so where do we go from here?
lower daddy!:yikes:

Edited

Beach Comber
#84
What's the chance the our government can peacefully merge or acquire another country? Maybe we can work our way out of this.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2079rank.html

can someone explain to me the difference between 'world debt - external' and 'global collateralized debt obligations'....the original article states that these CDO's are totalling 485 trillion, and the cia site states our world debt at around 53 trillion as of 2004....?
Beach Lover
#85
The original article states the value of "derivatives" at $485T, not "CDOs".

It's a fairly complex topic. I can point you to two sources to try and help sort it out.

1. An article that was written in 2003 when Warren Buffett, the next Treasury Secretary :idontno:, warned of the impending disaster related to Derivatives.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2817995.stm

Money quote: "Some derivatives contracts, Mr Buffett says, appear to have been devised by 'madmen'."

2. Wikipedia's entry on CDO's

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collateralized_debt_obligation

If you have any additional questions, you can find me in the corner of my office curled up in the fetal position.
AAbsolute avatar
Banned
#86
Hang in there, Clint. Worst Worst Worst case is :

SPX 945 closed 1106

DJII 8400 closed 10365

Who knows , we may be there by Thursday !!!!!!

S & P 865.17
DJII 8193
11:00 p.m. 10/10/08

Will you still be at the Linear Green tomorrow? I've been thinking about getting off the wagon.
goofer avatar
Beach Fanatic
#87
S & P 865.17
DJII 8193
11:00 p.m. 10/10/08

Will you still be at the Linear Green tomorrow? I've been thinking about getting off the wagon.

I think we are at the bottom today. Xom is down $20 in 2 days !!!!! Total capitulation the last two trading sessions. I will see you tomorrow at the Green.
AAbsolute avatar
Banned
#88
I think we are at the bottom today. Xom is down $20 in 2 days !!!!! Total capitulation the last two trading sessions. I will see you tomorrow at the Green.

We are hovering in and around the numbers you posted. Bold move picking the bottom of the S & P and Dow. If you turn out to be correct within a couple percentage points it will be amazing. I guess you know I'll be watching.

See ya
goofer avatar
Beach Fanatic
#89
Equity Eradication, Evisceration, Ejection, Emasculation, Extraction, Emaciation, Eviction
The Bull has been castrated!
Now, the good news. The very fact that I posted this should be a great contraindicator. Today, today should be the bottom at 11:30 A.M.

=no Ejaculation.
SHELLY avatar
SoWal Insider
#90
I think we are at the bottom today.

:biggrin:

I'll admit, we're closer to the bottom than the last time you called the bottom.

.
AAbsolute avatar
Banned
#92
I think we are at the bottom today. Xom is down $20 in 2 days !!!!! Total capitulation the last two trading sessions. I will see you tomorrow at the Green.

Would you believe XOM will be up 10% by next Friday? 10/10 to 10/17
goofer avatar
Beach Fanatic
#93
:biggrin:

I'll admit, we're closer to the bottom than the last time you called the bottom.

.

Why are you such a jackass ????
elgordoboy avatar
Beach Fanatic
#94
Why are you such a jackass ????
I thought y'all were getting along? :idontno:
goofer avatar
Beach Fanatic
#95
I thought of TooFarTampa and her Mom's XOM and our discussion in May when it was trading in the 90s:

http://sowal.com/bb/showpost.php?p=413585&postcount=28

(TFT...did her position stop out?)

Shelly, do you really care about TFT's mom ? Or is your schadenfreude acting up again. You should really see a psychiatrist.
SHELLY avatar
SoWal Insider
#96
I thought y'all were getting along? :idontno:

We are, in an ambivalent sort of way.

.
SHELLY avatar
SoWal Insider
#97
Shelly, do you really care about TFT's mom ?

Yeah, actually I do.

I think TFT had mom take some XOM off the table and then hooked her up with a trailing stop--I hope it worked out for her. TFT was on the right track by asking questions when the energy market was wild and wooly and did her mom a service by being the voice of reason.

.
Miss Kitty avatar
Meow
#98
Yeah, actually I do.

I think TFT had mom take some XOM off the table and then hooked her up with a trailing stop--I hope it worked out for her. TFT was on the right track by asking questions when the energy market was wild and wooly and did her mom a service by being the voice of reason.

.

I remember that discussion. I'll be interested to hear what TFT's mom did. I didn't touch mine...haven't touched it in 54 years.
AAbsolute avatar
Banned
#99
Would you believe XOM will be up 10% by next Friday? 10/10 to 10/17

Goofer44,

You know I am somewhat of an apprentice of yours. Can I get a little credit for my XOM pick from last Friday?

XOM 10/10 to 10/14 Market open up 20%.
TheSheep avatar
Beach Fanatic
#100
Do you guys see how much of this crisis is driven by psychology versus fundamentals? People are panicking. Nothing good ever comes of that.
Back in them thar days of double digit inflation and Iran Contrafied kidnappings, a very bright man spake about the effect of the psychology of inflation. His name was ZBlkjcAo BSrsiyfgholsdkgs :yikes: or something like that. Lotsa end-of-alphabet letters, very guttural. Nonetheless, I believed he was spot on as I do your statement above.
The underlying assets (stocks and homes) are not worthless. The value of the homes will never drop to anywhere close to zero. The problem is that there is fear about the immediate future and everyone wants to hoard what they have rather than take a chance on buying anything. So the market value of the asset drops because the sellers are desperate to sell but no one is keen on buying. This will eventually pass.
My, you are on an intellectual roll, please continue.:clap:
I'm not saying there is no crisis. Far from it. I think we will probably experience a serious recession......But if we figure out ways to stay productive, we can avoid the worst of it. Adapt to the new environment, learn from our mistakes, and on the other side of this we will all be better for it.
Yazzir, they fraudsters will have to come up with new way to milk the constituents tax givings, we ain't a gonna be doin' no more 100% financings to thems Mexicano green card carriers. <spit>
AAbsolute avatar
Banned
#101
Back in them thar days of double digit inflation and Iran Contrafied kidnappings, a very bright man spake about the effect of the psychology of inflation. His name was ZBlkjcAo BSrsiyfgholsdkgs :yikes: or something like that. Lotsa end-of-alphabet letters, very guttural.

:floor:

Good stuff Sheep. JC

Edited

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