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SHELLY

SoWal Insider
Jun 13, 2005
5,763
803
dsilvar said:
I bought a condo fro $300,000 and will sell for 1 mil plus down the road..Why would any builder/developer build any condominum complex unless they see that there will be a market for that real estate.

The only "market" developers care about is the initial (or pre-construction) first sale...they couldn't care less what happens to the market after that. They will keep building new condos as long as they can sell them out. Once they unload their stock in one building, they're done with it...they simply move on to the next. Problem is, there will be plenty more condos than there are now when you put yours on the market for $1 million down the road. Do the developers care whether you sell your condo or if the market is flooded?....In a word.....nope.
 

SHELLY

SoWal Insider
Jun 13, 2005
5,763
803
Buckhead Rick said:
New York Times front page article last week (sorry but I don't remember which day) discussed the stand off between buyers and sellers on the coasts.

NEW YORK TIMES
March 4, 2006
Hoping for Best in Home Sales, 2 Sides Sit Tight
By VIKAS BAJAJ and DAVID LEONHARDT

Along much of the East and West Coasts, home buyers and home sellers are engaged in a stare-down.

Many buyers, having heard that the real estate market is a bubble in danger of popping, are refusing to offer the asking price on a house, convinced that it will soon drop. But many sellers are not blinking either, thinking that offers will improve when the weather does and biding their time until then.

As a result, the housing market is now in a deeply confusing state, with average prices still rising even though homes are taking much longer to sell and the number on the market has soared. Sometime soon ? probably in the spring, the peak sales season ? one side or the other will have to capitulate, many economists and industry executives predict.

"In my opinion, the jury on housing is still out," said Antonio B. Mon, the chief executive of Technical Olympic USA, a home builder. "The period from now until May will tell the tale."

Many real estate agents argue that the current slowdown is merely a pause, pointing out that interest rates remain low and that Americans still seem convinced that houses are a great investment. Buyers, on the other hand, are hoping that the rising number of unsold homes is a signal that a slump is coming. It was an early sign of the last housing slump, in the early 1990's.

Nationwide, the number of existing homes for sale jumped 36 percent between January 2005 and January of this year, the National Association of Realtors reported Tuesday.

In Manhattan, 42 percent more co-ops and condominiums were available for sale at the end of last month than was the case a year ago, according to Miller Samuel, an appraisal company in New York. More Manhattan apartments were on the market in late February than at any point in at least five years.

For now, though, average selling prices have continued to rise, even in the markets that had already experienced the biggest leaps in prices and the increases continued even in the final months of last year. Prices rose 40 percent in the Phoenix area during 2005, according to the federal government. In Manhattan, the median price of an apartment was $760,000 at the end of last year, up from $605,000 at the end of 2004.

The latest statistics on house prices appear to be dominated by sellers who, for one reason or another, quickly received good offers. That has kept average prices rising. Builders of new homes have also offered bonuses to buyers, like enclosed sunrooms or top-of-the-line appliances. So the builders have been able to continue selling homes without cutting the list prices.

But many houses in the Northeast, Florida and California are, in fact, selling for less than they would have six months ago. In parts of the Northeast, the drop has been about 5 percent, estimated Robert I. Toll, chief executive of Toll Brothers, the biggest luxury home builder in the country. Other sellers have cut their price and still not found a buyer.

In Buxton, Me., a suburb of Portland, Geof and Cheri Toner put their three-bedroom Cape Cod-style house on the market for $379,900 late last year, shortly before moving to Raleigh, N.C., for Mr. Toner's job. They have received only one offer ? for $350,000, which they rejected ? and recently reduced the price to $374,900.

Mr. Toner said he assumed that more buyers would look at the property as the weather warmed up. In the spring, they would not have to wonder whether snow covered up flaws in the lawn or the roof. He expects that the eventual buyer will be a transplant from elsewhere in New England who is willing to pay significantly more than $350,000.

"We're not panicking over it," said Mr. Toner, 48, the regional sales manager of a video equipment maker. "It's just a matter of sitting it out and seeing what happens."

Many real estate agents argue that people like the Toners are doing the right thing and that the market will not slump as it did a decade ago. The job market is now improving. The interest rate on a 30-year fixed rate mortgage remains just 5.79 percent, according to Bankrate.com. And the number of homes on the market remains far lower than in the early 1990's, relative to sales volumes, despite the recent increases.

The current slowdown is simply a transition, the agents say, from a scorching hot housing market to a normal, healthy one. "All we are seeing is a pregnant pause," said Richard A. Smith, chief executive of Cendant's real estate division, which owns Coldwell Banker and Century 21, "a disconnect between sellers and buyers."

But many buyers say they have a sense that the long boom has finally come to an end.

In the San Jose, Calif., area, where the average house price increased 21 percent last year, Sathish Pottavathini, a programmer at eBay, said he was taking his time with the search for a new home and trying to find a good deal.

"I don't want to rush into things especially in this kind of situation," Mr. Pottavathini, who is 32, said, "where you hear about a slowing down everywhere."

He and his wife, Madhuri, spend $1,200 a month renting an 800-square-foot two-bedroom apartment, where they live with their 21/2-year-old daughter, Siri. They would like to find a three-bedroom town house with a two-car garage for less than $500,000.

Although he does not expect prices to fall significantly, he does not think they will rise either and hopes he can find a bargain ? a goal that seemed all but impossible in Northern California in the last few years. Now, Mr. Pottavathini said, "If I wait, I might get a better place."

Buyers who showed similar patience in the early 1990's were rewarded. From the summer of 1989 to the summer of 1990, the number of homes for sale rose about 10 percent, according to the Realtors association.

At first, many sellers refused to accept lower offers, thinking that they would get their asking price or close to it. But they eventually had to unload their houses, and in the Northeast and California that often meant reducing the price. In the Los Angeles area, the median sale price of existing houses fell 22 percent from 1992 to 1996, before taking inflation into account.

If a similar slowdown were to happen again, Mr. Toner said he would consider changing his mind and his asking price. "At some point, if this were to become protracted, I would consider lowering the price to attract a buyer," he said.

Mr. Pottavathini, meanwhile, is giving his San Jose search four months. After that, he plans to take a break and wait until his daughter is a bit older and his wife returns to work. With more money coming in, they might be able to pay more.

If they still have not succeeded, they would then consider leaving Northern California ? which he called "the best place in the world" ? and returning to their native India.

"If the condos become $600,000, it doesn't make any sense to live here," he said. "Imagine owning a house and paying your whole life for that house. I would rather move back to India."
 

dsilvar

Beach Fanatic
Jan 12, 2006
307
0
68
Miramar beach
SHELLY said:
The only "market" developers care about is the initial (or pre-construction) first sale...they couldn't care less what happens to the market after that. They will keep building new condos as long as they can sell them out. Once they unload their stock in one building, they're done with it...they simply move on to the next. Problem is, there will be plenty more condos than there are now when you put yours on the market for $1 million down the road. Do the developers care whether you sell your condo or if the market is flooded?....In a word.....nope.

Shelly, my dear girl...I know developers worship their margin of profit..no surprise there!
However you say "..They will keep building new condos as long as they can sell them out. Once they unload their stock in one building, they're done with it..."
But, by definition there is NO market for condos anymore!! Preconstruction or otherwise..especially preconstruction!! The condo flippers are feeling the flames of financial hell licking at their heels and the resellers are not "willing" to reduce their prices.

If there is no market then no more condo building! period.

Lets not forget the very healthy real estate price differentials between the Florida coasts or even up and down the gulf coast. Tampa, Sarasota and Naples are higher than we are in SoWal.
I have a lot in Gulf cove down in Port Charlotte that is up 400%..not any place you want to live (as yet, anyway). The prices for lots and condos there are almost on par with SoWal and they had a hurricane go right thru.
I know there is a saddening disconnect between the acquisition of the Almighty dollar and human kindness..but market mechanics will deal with the good the bad and the ugly with an even hand.
 

Cork On the Ocean

directionally challenged
It seems that it gets down to the old adage - People that see the glass half full and those that see it half empty and I really don't think the inherent nature of the person can change. I see a pattern of personalitites and it's quite clear that none of us have a crystal ball and there's equal opinions on both sides which are mere predictions. I see the glass half full - always have in everything.

My question is to Galtsgulch and is related to the prices that he/she is gauging the "high mark" from.

"if you calculate from the highwater mark of asking prices, which occurred roughly 12 months ago.. I would submit that valuations in SoWal have only fallen 10% from that peak so far, and have a good 15% or more to go."

My question is how in the world can someone calculate the highwater mark as asking price? This is a hope, a dream, sometimes akin to hitting the lottery. Asking price is not fact or reality in any sense. I don't know of any appraiser or financial expert that bases value (not valuation) on asking price. When the IRS taxes you, it's not based on asking price :eek: . When the bank lends you money, it's not based on asking price. :rotfl:

IMHO, people who continue to gauge the market on asking price are just looking for a way to turn things into a negative. The only reality is sold prices and conjecture about people's dream price is just that. Meaningful value assessment must be based on reality and the reality here is that the average value has gone up, not down, so even in a period when the number of sales have dramatically dropped, the average price is going up. Wait another year and see what it is. In the absence of some catastrophe, there will be no "mass carnage", only people missing the boat. I think that those predicting mass carnage are either dreaming or hoping that they could afford to buy something or believe they have in some way "lost money" (even though they paid peanuts in many cases) because they didn't sell it when they should have.

One of the most important things that anyone ever told me was from a very wealthy man who made his money in real estate and that was "If you're afraid to sign your name, you'll never make the first dime". I think fear stops more people from realizing success than anything else. I would truly be interested in knowing how many people that are negative towards the market have a net worth over $5 million. Highly successful people don't look at the glass as half empty, they base decisions on facts not speculation and they are flexible adapting to their environment.

If an investor is smart, there's always a way to make money in real estate. In a market where housing prices have gotten astronomical and the number of buyers have dropped, it makes sense to me that owning and renting affordable housing is prime. In our area, jobs are increasing, the population is growing and the price of housing has become so expensive that the working class can't afford it so they have to rent. Throw in increasing mortgage rates (with which I don't see a big problem yet but think are inevitable) and voila! As a small investor, I'm going to DSF's that are still under $400K and put them on long term rentals. If I had a lump of money to park and didn't want the hassel, there are some great land prices and I'd sit on land. If I were a large investor, I'd be looking at buying apartment complexes or developing affordable housing. Glass empty people won't be buying, glass full people will.
 

SHELLY

SoWal Insider
Jun 13, 2005
5,763
803

beclareesq

Beach Comber
Dec 7, 2005
12
0
Cork,
It is admirable that you are so loyal to SOWAL, but you are stretching common sense if you are arguing that now is a time to buy, at current asking prices. The only reason to be positive about the market is if you believe, like I do, that prices are going to fall 20-30% and there will then be buying opportunities. The area is great, unique and the longterm looks bright. There is no reason to sell for fear of a crash but otherwise, those who need to sell are going to find it rough sledding.

The proof is in the pudding as they say.. if the current asking prices were attractive to buyers then properties would be selling. They are not and it's not because people are too scared to write the check.
 

goofer

Beach Fanatic
Feb 21, 2005
1,165
191
Cork, the time to buy any asset is when even you ( the generic you ) are so scared that your hands are shaking with fear. Or in the case of real estate, when you want to puke all your holdings because you think we are going into a deflationary period like the 30's. That is not going to happen. But i think this late fall will be the great opportunity. ARM's payments going higher, hurricanes again, and the speculators hitting the panic button. They will squeal no mas......that will be the bottom.
 

tylerT

Beach Lover
Nov 22, 2005
51
0
There are a lot of folks on here that are scared of reality - but positive spin or attacking the messenger doesn't change the facts which are that there is an absolute glut of both single family homes and residential land on the market in South Walton. All realtors are worried and sales have fallen dramatically. It will take years for the local market to absorb everything that's for sale. An airport might help years down the road, but for right now and at least several, several months and possible a few years to come, there's little money or return to be made here.

You can't spin the facts, and if you say differently, you're trying to change them by a positive attitude or boosterism that is becoming almost pathetic. I know and am close friends with several reputable realtors who have seen their commissions plummet - decline by triple digits over the same time last year.

Many of you folks are no longer credible because the truth is becoming obvious, but you refuse to change your tune. Well, wee, wee , wee - forget what you see and trust us to tell you what's really happening.
 

Smiling JOe

SoWal Expert
Nov 18, 2004
31,644
1,773
tylerT said:
There are a lot of folks on here that are scared of reality - but positive spin or attacking the messenger doesn't change the facts which are that there is an absolute glut of both single family homes and residential land on the market in South Walton. All realtors are worried and sales have fallen dramatically.
Not true, maybe many are worried, but not all.

tylerT said:
It will take years for the local market to absorb everything that's for sale.

Only at today's rate of sale. That too can change.

tylerT said:
An airport might help years down the road, but for right now and at least several, several months and possible a few years to come, there's little money or return to be made here.
Only if you don't know what you are doing.
 

Paula

Beach Fanatic
Jan 25, 2005
3,747
442
Michigan but someday in SoWal as well
tylerT said:
There are a lot of folks on here that are scared of reality - but positive spin or attacking the messenger doesn't change the facts which are that there is an absolute glut of both single family homes and residential land on the market in South Walton. All realtors are worried and sales have fallen dramatically. It will take years for the local market to absorb everything that's for sale. An airport might help years down the road, but for right now and at least several, several months and possible a few years to come, there's little money or return to be made here.

You can't spin the facts, and if you say differently, you're trying to change them by a positive attitude or boosterism that is becoming almost pathetic. I know and am close friends with several reputable realtors who have seen their commissions plummet - decline by triple digits over the same time last year.

Many of you folks are no longer credible because the truth is becoming obvious, but you refuse to change your tune. Well, wee, wee , wee - forget what you see and trust us to tell you what's really happening.


The best tunes to sing are not "sky is falling" or "everything's rosy" -- overstatements and simplistic thinking of any kind are the kiss of death for smart decisions. Most people on this board (I'd say all people on this board) are wise enough to know the market is changing, as all markets do. Most people also know that some people will lose money (that's nothing new), some people will make money (that's nothing new), some people will try to time the market and buy when they can get the lowest price, some people will buy when they can get a good-enough-price, most people know not to put all their eggs in one basket, etc., etc., etc.

I think what surprises (and seems to bother) some people on this board is that many people can love a place and feel good regardless of what the market is doing.
 
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