Customary Use and Our 30A Legacy

Discussion in 'Local Government and Groups' started by Reggie Gaskins, Apr 25, 2019.

  1. BlueMtnBeachVagrant

    BlueMtnBeachVagrant Beach Fanatic

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    Why didn’t you just say so? :)

    Correct...not from you so far.

    And there were equal and opposite hurtful actions from people who feel entitled to another’s property and by those looking to sensationalize these events on social media BEFORE a judicial determination is made and by those who continue to “deamonize” private property owners for buying and owning legally deeded property.

    In the end the private beaches will still be privately owned (not an opinion). The question then becomes if the public will be able to use it based on the claim of customary use.

    I guess I’m sure to get a big fat red X from you.
     
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  2. Teresa

    Teresa SoWal Guide Staff Member

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    A
    DEMONIZE. that is what you and your friends here do best. Hope you are having an emotional support beer on me The bar is open. Cheers!
     
  3. Teresa

    Teresa SoWal Guide Staff Member

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    Very sorry if you have been attacked here. That is not acceptable.
     
  4. FactorFiction

    FactorFiction Beach Fanatic

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    Customary Use Will Destroy Our 30A Legacy
    Reggie Gaskins, Apr 25, 2019 ... 24 25 26

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    For what it's worth, I joined this group over 3 years ago. When I joined, I saw that most people, other than staff, had fictional names. I didn't know why they used fictional names, but I followed suit. Now I know why. I don't know what the intention of this forum was when it was created, but it seems clear to me now why people don't use their real names in most cases. People enjoy being keyboard warriors, but not having to own up to their hostile remarks. Or, even if they are polite and respectful, they are subject to name calling, belittling, and other verbal attack. Putting all that aside, this post has generated more views and replies for this site than any I can recall in my time on the site. At least it's good for your site metrics, so maybe it isn't all bad even if you disagree with most of the people who have spoken up.
     
  5. Teresa

    Teresa SoWal Guide Staff Member

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    Oh there are bigger threads and much more honest and constructive.

    The forum was created to provide a place for people to share their beach experiences including during and after hurricane and storms. To share. To ask and answer questions about our community. To allow you the reader to decide what you want from the forum. Fifteen years and thousands of posts later on every topic... This may be the very first Alternative Reality thread. Congratulations.
     
  6. FactorFiction

    FactorFiction Beach Fanatic

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    Not sure why you edited out the Penis cake as your example, but I did go check it out. Amusing for sure. I guess honest and constructive is a matter of perspective. I think there are people on both sides of this issue that are honest and constructive and some of them spoke up here. There are also people who have beliefs that don't coincide with facts and no amount of proof will change those beliefs. The whole point of this thread seemed to be about our 30A Legacy. One thing that seems pretty clear is that this conflict will not improve the 30A Legacy no matter how it is ultimately resolved by the courts.
     
  7. L.C. Bane

    L.C. Bane Beach Fanatic

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    I agree FactorFiction if I can tweek your wording a bit. The CU conflict will not improve the legacy of the beaches of Walton County.

    30A and South Walton are relatively recent monikers for the area. Hardly legacy unless you are subject to marketing campaigns.
     
  8. BlueMtnBeachVagrant

    BlueMtnBeachVagrant Beach Fanatic

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    What a tease!
    I thought you were taking the high road, you know, reaching out just a little, pointing out common ground. But then I was hit with your “Alternative Reality” comment and a “Congratulations” and then I realize that it’s just business as usual.
     
  9. FactorFiction

    FactorFiction Beach Fanatic

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    Point taken. I guess 30A only counts back to around 1960 and the other monikers much more recently.
     
  10. BeachSandpiper

    BeachSandpiper Beach Comber

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    I agree. I am new to this forum, and after reading several threads and responses decided to create an account so I could reply. The majority of responses were by people with fun beach names, so I followed suit to create my profile. There was nothing secretive about this. I enjoy reading the different opinions- just not the personal bashing and name calling. Thanks for pointing out the satire... while it is not my style, I now understand what Pam Hicks was trying to accomplish, even if I disagree with her.
     
  11. FloridaBeachBum

    FloridaBeachBum Beach Fanatic

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    Every time I read Tona-Rama (T-R) I understand a little better what T-R was and was not. I think I understand the doctrine of public customary use of private property better now than the first time I read T-R. I have a layman’s understanding of the principles of property rights and public customary use of private property, not the technical legal proceedings, but I think not being an attorney can be a good thing. Laypersons are not wrapped up the legal processes and bureaucracy and can focus on the facts. This post is for private property owners who hear over and over that T-R legalized customary use of Florida private beachfront. Property owners should consider the credibility of the sources that state anything other than T-R was prescriptive easement case that recognize the doctrine of custom but created more questions than answers. If you dispute any fact or disagree; please reply with your own alternative facts, not with emotional shout-downs or at least have some verifiable information for your opinions please. The credibility of the posts depends on it.

    Facts.
    1974. The plaintiff Tona-Rama, Inc. lost their litigation in the FL Supreme court!

    1. Tona-Rama was litigation between two (2) private commercial beachfront businesses on Daytona Beach, Plaintiff Tona-Rama, Inc. (T-R) and Defendant McMillan and Wright, Inc. (M&W).

    2. M&W owned 15,300 sq ft of private commercial beach to the Mean High Water Line (MHWL) with a 1,050 foot for profit pier. M&W had owned the property for more than 65 years! M&W provided such attractions as fishing space, helicopter flights, dances and sky lift.

    3. October 1969 M&W and the City of Daytona Beach petitioned and obtained a permit to build a $125,000, 176 ft high, 75 ft diameter (225 sq ft ), for profit observation tower [Space Needle], on of private beachfront accessible from the M&W amusement pier.

    4. After beach construction started next to the M&W private pier but before completion of the Space Needle tower; the Attorney General of Florida and Tona-Rama, Inc., a rival beach tower owner, filed for a declaratory judgment as to ownership of the land and for injunctive relief restraining M&W from building their competing amusement tower.

    5. The trial court refused to issue T-R a temporary injunction and the tower was completed.

    6. The court then entered summary judgment for plaintiffs [T-R], finding that the public had acquired a prescriptive right to use M&W private land as a bathing beach, thoroughfare, recreation area and playground, the City of Daytona Beach had improperly granted the building permit.

    7. The corporation [M&W] was ordered by the court to remove the M&W observation tower but was allowed to continue construction under appeal.

    8. The district court of appeal affirmed the finding of the trial court public prescriptive easement [T-R prevails] on M&W private property, despite M&W’s contention that public use of the dry sand area was not sufficiently adverse to the owner's interest to raise a prescriptive easement.

    9. Appeal case was certified to FL Supreme Court as being one which passes on a question of great public interest.

    10. The Florida Supreme Court (FSC) found that the public had NOT gained a prescriptive right to M&W private propriety. Declaring that existing public uses of the beach were "consistent" with erection of the private M&W tower. FSC dictum; “neither the trial court, nor the District Court, reached the other requirement for prescription to be properly effective adverse possession inconsistent with the owner's use and enjoyment of the land.”

    “The use of the property by the public was not against, but was in furtherance of, the interest of the defendant owner. Such use was not injurious to the owner and there was no invasion of the owner's right to the property. Unless the owner loses something, the public could obtain no easement by prescription. J.C. Vereen & Sons v. Houser, supra.”

    11. The [FSC] decision of the District Court of Appeal is quashed and this cause is remanded to the District Court with instructions to further remand the same to the trial court for the purpose of entering final judgment for defendant [M&W]. T-R loses and M&W tower prevails and the public had no right of access to the private property and the M&W tower could remain.

    Observations.

    But wait! .... FSC also cites Tiffany Real Property, (Third Edition), Vol. 3 English common law customary use doctrine (pp. 623-624)! To justify the public having public access to private property despite no prescriptive easement on M&W private beach.
    From Tiffany; the custom, to be valid, [1] 'must have continued from time immemorial, [2] without interruption, and [3] as of right; [4] it must be certain as to the place, and [5] as to the persons; and it must be [6] certain and [7] reasonable as to the subject matter or rights created.'
    Where did the ancient English customary use doctrine come from in a prescriptive easement litigation??? None of the parties brought up public customary use rights.

    Tona-Rama was a public prescriptive easement litigation and the FSC just declared there was NO public prescriptive easement right on M&W private beachfront property and M&W could keep in place the $125,000 for profit Space Needle tower on their 225 sq ft of private beach based on the evidence for and against a public prescriptive easement. Done.

    Where was the legal evidence presented of public customary use of M&W private property! There was NONE. The FSC for the first time ever discussed or recognized in the dicta the doctrine of Customary Use in Tona-Rama dicta, sua sponte [Latin term usually applied to actions by a judge taken without a prior motion or request from the parties].

    FSC immediately states following Tiffany; “If the recreational use of the sandy area adjacent to mean high tide has been [1] ancient, [2] reasonable, [3] without interruption and [4] free from dispute, such use, as a matter of custom, should not be interfered with by the owner.” That’s not what Tiffany says! Where’s Tiffany’s and Blackstone’s [3], [4], [5], and [6]? What does customary “free from dispute” mean?

    Even Walton’s customary use attorney [and Destin’s 2002 attorney] David Theriaque September 2018 presentation cites English Sir William Blacksone 1765-1770 English common law “Commentaries” seven (7) custom criteria and describes them from Thornton v Hay.
    2018 Theriaque CU Criteria small.jpg

    That is NOT FSC interpreting common law; that’s making new uncommon law from the bench.

    Importantly, the FSC in its 1974 dicta never discussed whether the doctrine of Customary Use was consistent with the U.S. Constitution (5th and 14th Amendments) or FL Statute section 2.01, (enacted Nov. 6, 1829): The common and statute laws of England which are of a general and not a local nature, with the exception hereinafter mentioned, down to the 4th day of July, 1776, are declared to be of force in this state; provided, the said statutes and common law be not inconsistent with the Constitution and laws of the United States and the acts of the Legislature of this state.

    The Florida Supreme Court overruled the lower courts and Tona-Rama lost and M&W was able to keep the Space Needle tower. Because there was NO adverse public possession of private beachfront and NO public prescriptive rights to M&W private property.

    Then just in case we wanted to know the FSC court out of the blue brings up an arcane old English common law of custom, removes 4 of the 7 common law criteria, and makes up a new law criteria. To justify public use of private property with no evidence of public customary use when no prescriptive right was found?

    So before property owners listen to the CU agenda on the 1974 FSC Tona-Rama and the dicta, you might read the details of the 1974 Tona-Rama case and the Constitutional challenge in front of Judge Green now and likely the Appeals, FSC, and US Supreme Court. All upper courts that have more conservative-justices than not that should interpret the old English common law of custom and whether it is repugnant to the US Constitution; not make it up as they go.

    It’s only going to take multi-millions of Walton tax payers dollars to find out the facts in court and many years of and anti-social media ill will. CUnCourt.

    If you dispute any fact or disagree; please reply with your own alternative facts, not with emotional shout-downs or at least have some verifiable information for your opinions please. The credibility of your posts depends on it.

    Note. Dicta. The plural form of dictum. Term generally used to describe a court's discussion of points or questions not raised by the record or its suggestion of rules not applicable in the case at bar. Judicial dictum is an opinion by a court on a question that is not essential to its decision even though it may be directly involved.

    Post sources available upon request.
    Florida Coastal Property Rights
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2019
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  12. jodiFL

    jodiFL Beach Fanatic

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    This thread doesnt even come close to Blue Tick Pup.....
     
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  13. James Bentwood

    James Bentwood Beach Fanatic

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    I want one please let me know where to pick up.
     
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  14. Lake View Too

    Lake View Too SoWal Insider

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    When you compare the ratio of these figures you get 0.025 as a "toxicity index" (the amount of people that are curious compared to the amount of people that want to contribute).As a comparison, the next most toxic thread, "Welcome to Trump's America", has a "toxicity index" of .130. Don't ya just love a train wreck?
     
  15. Dave Rauschkolb

    Dave Rauschkolb Beach Fanatic

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    That's hilarious; good point JodiFL. Here you have the same 6 or 8 people talking in circles in this echo chamber of a thread. 20,000 views. Ha ha. Estimate 19,700 are of them reading their own stuff and replying to their own stuff. I would not exactly call this a "high engagement" thread by any stretch of the imagination. Reminds me of someone with 42 twitter followers. Where are the 6500 adoring fans representing and appreciating the viewpoints expressed? Another echo chamber there as well. "Just a handful."
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2019
  16. BlueMtnBeachVagrant

    BlueMtnBeachVagrant Beach Fanatic

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    Is it just me?
     
  17. BlueMtnBeachVagrant

    BlueMtnBeachVagrant Beach Fanatic

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    My only "perceived grievance" on a personal level is a result from Daniel Uhlfelder - in effect calling me a Nazi because I (we - over 600 parcel DEFENDANTS) elect to fight for our private property rights ("and that his Jewish grandparents immigrated to this country because of oppression like this"). That's a lot of hostility being projected by a supposed respected member of our community and a PRINCIPAL spokesperson and attorney for customary use.

    Oh, maybe it's my imagination, but didn't Daniel's cohort JUST POST on this thread? You know, the one that won't engage me. Could he not speak on behalf of Daniel and/or FBFA, since it was Daniel, a Florida Beaches for All spokesperson?

    This is the last post regarding Damiel's Nazi really disgusting analogy. I think Reggie's thread title is more than obviously still spot on.

    Now I get it. It's ok to refer to someone as a Nazi as long as it's heartfelt. Sad.
    Trump's not here either. Doesn't stop all the Trump bashing.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2019
  18. Lake View Too

    Lake View Too SoWal Insider

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    So sad...
     
  19. James Bentwood

    James Bentwood Beach Fanatic

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    Your outrage is so outrageous.:lol:

    Seriously don't take his comment so seriously. Because the comment was foolish. Defending your stance by hanging your hat on that comment makes you look foolish.
     
  20. FloridaBeachBum

    FloridaBeachBum Beach Fanatic

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    It’s an echo chamber because their are no alternative facts for why public customary use of private property should be legal based on the 7? ancient English common law criteria of custom, no credibility, no substance. Just deflection, made up fake "toxicity index", empty rhetoric, name calling, and shout downs. Justify the doctrine of public customary use of private property, other than, I believe it. Why? Based on what verifiable information? Crickets so far. At least dispute the property rights facts with your own alternative facts.

    Talking about credibility of facts. Here is a simple Yes or No question; is there any Seaside business/LLC, excluding the original property owner, Seaside Community Development Corporation and Seaside HOAs, that own private property in Seaside seaward from the beach top of the dunes, the dune walkovers, to the MHWL?

    Is the Seaside Community Development Corporation intervening against Walton Commissioner’s litigation against 650+ other private beachfront owners to affirm public customary use of private property?

    I won’t hold my breath waiting for a response from anyone as LC Bane suggested I not do on page 17.
    Customary Use Will Destroy Our 30A Legacy
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2019

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