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NotDeadYet

Beach Fanatic
Jul 7, 2007
1,422
489
So, since you provide the EPA toxicity data, could you please crunch the numbers regarding the mg/kg exposure needed to produce a toxic 'event'. If you have a one pound mouse, you can figure it out, then extrapolate to a human. This stuff sounds terfifying until you actually do the math.

Tell you what, Skunky. Take your mouse and expose it to the appropriate dose (what would be expected if the mouse was unfortunate enough to be outside when the mosquito truck went by) then add similar appropriate doses of lawn chemicals, routine household pesticides used for ant and roach control, pesticide residue found on non-organic fruits and vegetables in a mouse-sized diet, chemicals acquired from plastic food containers and non-stick cookware, a few commonly used prescription drugs the mouse needs, dose appropriate of course, enough food additives and dyes to cover a so-called balanced diet, etc.

Then have the mouse inhale voc’s out-gassing from products used in home construction and furnishing, fumes from cleaning products commonly used in homes and workplaces, air pollutants, throw in a few mold spores and the exhaust fumes from the mosquito truck and your neighbor's leaf blower.

And this is just a partial list, all I have time for at the moment. There are plenty more, a few of which we can avoid, and many we cannot.

How’s your mouse feeling now? Fine? Well, great. Keep feeding this as a daily diet and get back to me.
Or has someone done this and I missed the study?

For the record I am not across-the-board opposed to mosquito control. I just happen to think that the load of non-natural chemicals that we encounter every day is bound to have unintended consequences sooner or later.
Would I choose Permethrin over malaria? You bet. But that begs the question, why are we stuck with two lousy choices? Defending the 'better living through chemistry' point of view is seriously biased and it keeps us from actively working to find alternatives and reduce other exposures that are often optional but promoted as the latest and greatest inventions.
 

30A Skunkape

Mr. Small Box
Jan 18, 2006
10,155
2,173
50
Backatown Seagrove
Tell you what, Skunky. Take your mouse and expose it to the appropriate dose (what would be expected if the mouse was unfortunate enough to be outside when the mosquito truck went by) then add similar appropriate doses of lawn chemicals, routine household pesticides used for ant and roach control, pesticide residue found on non-organic fruits and vegetables in a mouse-sized diet, chemicals acquired from plastic food containers and non-stick cookware, a few commonly used prescription drugs the mouse needs, dose appropriate of course, enough food additives and dyes to cover a so-called balanced diet, etc.

Then have the mouse inhale voc’s out-gassing from products used in home construction and furnishing, fumes from cleaning products commonly used in homes and workplaces, air pollutants, throw in a few mold spores and the exhaust fumes from the mosquito truck and your neighbor's leaf blower.

And this is just a partial list, all I have time for at the moment. There are plenty more, a few of which we can avoid, and many we cannot.

How’s your mouse feeling now? Fine? Well, great. Keep feeding this as a daily diet and get back to me.
Or has someone done this and I missed the study?

For the record I am not across-the-board opposed to mosquito control. I just happen to think that the load of non-natural chemicals that we encounter every day is bound to have unintended consequences sooner or later.
Would I choose Permethrin over malaria? You bet. But that begs the question, why are we stuck with two lousy choices? Defending the 'better living through chemistry' point of view is seriously biased and it keeps us from actively working to find alternatives and reduce other exposures that are often optional but promoted as the latest and greatest inventions.

You forgot to mention deadly radiation from the Sun. Falling or otherwise.
 

Bob Hudson

Beach Fanatic
May 10, 2008
1,066
739
Santa Rosa Beach
Hopefully someone will actually be able to offer the Name of a "non toxic" organic alternative used by a city, town, country or world that is used in ULV sprayers to the product we use.

I keep hearing that they are available but no one can name it or tell me where it's in use. I looked far and wide, called mosquito control districts throughout the country and I have not found it.

I am we'll aware that the product we use is a "neurotoxin" and that it can only be used under very closely monitored conditions, by licensed technicians to reduce the risk to a very minimal level. We use the product at 1/2 the allowed application rate per acre.

We meet every guideline and recommendation listed in the Joint statement issued by the Center for Disease Control and the Environmental Protection Agency.

I'm asking for help to find this "silver bullet".
 
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Interesting thread. I plan to read the links.

Tangent: To JoshandLindsey, I've looked at poverty maps, like at povertyusa.org, and can see that the southern states (except for Virginia) are all at high poverty levels. I can't explain why that is true. There is a street in town that we drive down every time we go to the beach, and it's sad that on this street everyone is well below the poverty level. And yet we're driving to a place where houses worth a million dollars or more are abundant. If someone is living at the poverty level or below, it's hard to be concerned about environmental issues when just trying to put food on the table (even if it is unhealthy -- fresh produce is expensive, for example), pay utility bills, etc. Forget a college education for your child unless s/he is bright or an exceptional athlete. Being Southern doesn't mean one is stupid, but the probability of being uneducated makes a Southerner be more likely to be ignorant. I can see why people make the transitive argument that Southerners are stupid. X implies Y, and Y implies Z, so they assume that X implies Z. Not all relationships are transitive.

No prob, J&L. If someone wants to talk further about this subject, s/he should start a new thread.

Tangent over.
 
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JoshandLindsey Jimenez

Beach Comber
Feb 20, 2012
27
2
Rosemary Beach
A new "tangent"? No thanks. Many people who are below poverty level are educated Beach Runner. Also many people who are below poverty level care about our environment. As a matter of fact, some people who are educated feel that a life full of money and a lack of interest in environmental concerns is not for them, sometimes that comes at too high of a price.
This conversation directly affects the topic at hand in regards to not wanting chemicals in our environment.
 

30A Skunkape

Mr. Small Box
Jan 18, 2006
10,155
2,173
50
Backatown Seagrove
Carry on, Doc.

I hear you. My point was, the poster that I asked to calculate a toxic dose based on weight posted what looks like an MSDS type sheet for permethrin. The toxic dose is provided right there-if one was to do the math, I'm guessing that the amount of permethrin one needs to ingest to induce toxicity is exponentially higher than what anyone along a spray route would ever, in their lifetime, be exposed to. The same can almost certainly be said regarding amplification in the food chain.

Some people, for whatever reason, get all hot and bothered about their potential to become intoxicated from substances that are not likely to ever cause them harm. I suspect it has to do with the truth that people fear what they don't understand. Add to misunderstanding a bunch of internet pseudoscience and you have people doing all kinds of irrational things. Nobody fears water for the toxic potential it harbors, but I assure you, if one consumes an unnatural quantity one can die from electrolyte imbalance. So too it is with permethrin, car exhaust, offgassing, etc. All these things are toxic, but short of a spectacularly inappropriate exposure, no real harm is likely. Plus, people often fail to consider just how effective their bodies are at breaking down and eliminating consumed toxins.

This spray versus no spray debate pops up every few years and people who were not involved during the previous brawls get in and rehash the same positions with the ultimate outcome that some people attach 'no spray' signs near their house while most do not. That is how this too, will end. In the interim, I think we should all be thankful that the mosquito board goes to the lengths it does to accomodate the various desires of all who live here.
 
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