Obama's Speech

[Teresa]

Mango - your speech has made my day. thank you so much for stating what many of us wanted to say in the first place but didn't find the right words....

 

[Geo]

It's always "insulting", "thoughtless" and "irritating" to liberals when someone disagrees with them isn't it Tootsie? Where you see leadership I see a liar. Someone as brilliant as Obama didn't notice the racist making these comments for 20 years. Give me a break. And in case we didn't buy that, lets throw grandma under the bus to divert everyone's attention. What an effing joke. I can't think of any reason in the world that anyone would vote for this guy except that his wife could finally be proud of her country. I know, I know, she didn't really mean it like that.

Hi Santiago,

I don't think we share the same politics- or at least the same opinions about Obama. But the odds are that we are both good people who probably share the same general wants/needs in this lifetime...

I don't know if I would consider myself a "liberal" but my guess is that you would. I guess it is all relative.

But I think it is fair to point out that I don't find it "insulting", "thoughtless" and "irritating" that you disagree with me like you said liberals "always" do...

Thanks genuinely for sharing your frank thoughts on this forum. Please continue to keep us representative of the differing views that are out there. And please continue to try your best to engage productively- many aren't trying their best in this thread, IMHO...

I wanted to acknowledge and give props to a point you made about Obama. You said he was a liar. That word could be viewed by some as being inflammatory and it has the potential to put his supporters on this thread into a downward spiral of personal attacks. BUT...

If we all dig deeper there might be something to this that is worth exploring-

My assumption is that you called him a liar because when the Wright scandal initially broke his response was that he didn't notice those types of comments for 20 years. Then after a few days he changed his message and basically acknowledged that he might have heard such rhetoric but that he didn't agree with it and then he went on to defend it within a broader context of racism...

Does this sum up the liar statement?

If so, then I think you very well might be correct. I think that Obama- my candidate- lied...

I think he knew what people would think when they heard Wright's remarks. I think he knew that this would sink him. And I think that he lied at that moment because he thought he had to- politically...

I don't condone lying. But I am (you are going to crucify me for this one) excusing him for it...

I am giving him the benefit of the doubt because I don't think that he even considered that it was an option to be truthful right then and there and bring up the tough issues and complexities surrounding this. And even if he did consider initially that he could go there- racism is such a heavy subject that it needed to be done very carefully- not only to do it right as to unite- but admittedly- to do so in a way to also save his campaign.

I genuinely believe (whether I am right or wrong about it) that what Obama said in his masterful speech was from the heart- all of it.

And I wish that you weren't correct in your assessment that he lied. But I think he did...

 

[Teresa]

... OK, Buster, I'll agree your post is irritating (and imo unnecessarily divisive). Most people are just offering opinions and rebuttals with or without chips on their shoulders.

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welllll... I think buster has a point about the whiners on the board over the last few days. whining about being "blasted" is unfair and irritating as hail.

america does not know how to talk about heavy issues such as race. it is just "unpleasant" and needs to go back where it belongs like under the rug. I suppose.


geowickey - you make an excellent point. I didn't know how to take the "lie" that was mentioned because i didn't feel it was a lie. but technically... perhaps... maybe.

 

[rapunzel]

She should not imply that I'm intolerant because I disagree with Obama. I was a Romney supporter, but I would never consider that those who disagree with him, politically, were intolerant of his religion.

There are other non-Obama supporters who would share their views on this forum, but are afraid of similar treatment.

CCK, I honestly did not mean to imply that you were intolerant at all. I was simply trying to explain how someone might love a church even if they don't agree with every word a pastor utters. How there is more to a church than theology, and more to a church community than one minister who said a few stupid things from the pulpit while doing years of amazing work. That was the point of that long story.

I was trying to ask you to look at the parallels between Huckabee going behind closed doors to talk about what was "different" and "not like us" (which we agreed was wrong) and what is now being used against Sen. Obama. Of course, you may not see similarities where I do...and that's fair. I was just asking you to think about it in the way I have and question it for yourself. That's all I ask, and if you have and still don't see the similarities, then I have no less respect for you than I did yesterday. I do not think you are an intolerant person.

I think there are people that make their living coming up with spin and shaping political debate in a way that it is targeted to not stimulate the brain but punch the gut. I think Howard Wolfson and a few agents of intolerance on the right are happy to trot out some bit of something that has nothing to do with a man or the type of President he would be, but makes him seem different, plop a label on it to pretend there is a different reason they are playing the clip or discussing the subject ad nauseum, and make people uncomfortable. If you don't think the reaction to that clip, for many people, was not so much what Rev. Wright said but how he said it, and the shouting and boisterousness of the congregation -- then why do we not see the same reaction, the same condemnation, when Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell said virtually the same things?

I will admit I don't think this Wright footage caused you a great deal of soul-searching about whether or not to support Obama, because I don't think you are of the same political persuasion. I'd love to hear what issues you disagree with him on, and have a little back and forth and see if we can't change each other's mind, but I won't hold my breath. I never called you intolerant, and I don't think you are intolerant. I did think that you had probably just seen the footage, heard the commentator repeat the "unpatriotic" talking point, and agreed based on your first reaction to inflammatory words. It is because I don't think your intolerant that I took the time to try to ask you to look at the situation from a different angle. If I thought you were intolerant or I didn't respect your opinion, I'd have rolled my eyes and moved on.

Back to the beginning...you said I'd implied you were intolerant because you disagreed with Obama. Well, I think I've covered the not-intolerant part, but it wasn't that you said you didn't agree with Obama that prompted my post...it's that you said because of a few and far between words from his pastor, not Obama, you did not feel he was patriotic enough to be President. There's a huge difference between disagreeing with Obama and disagreeing with his pastor and making the leap from that to the decision that he is unfit to be President.

As for the others that are 'afraid of similar treatment' -- it's called a political forum because it's a place for debate and discussion. If someone attacks your views, answer the attack. Convince us we are wrong. Show us, and everyone else, the errors in our thinking. It's not a personal attack. it's intellectual exercise. I respect anyone who takes the time to learn enough about all the candidates' issues and can bring something to the debate. I have no problem with people that have different philosophical viewpoints -- I think they make more interesting friends than people who don't really think much about politics at all. Most of the people who claim to have been attacked never bother to answer the post they claim attacked them, but just go to other threads and complain about the unjust Obama supporters. I thank CCK for responding, even if my response doesn't convince her that I'm not a rhymes-with-witch.

 

[JustaLocal]

I think there is a limit to tolerance. Maybe one is tolerant of southerners who want their Dixie flag license tag, but what about a southerner who wears a hood and white sheet? Less likely.

I think that Rev. Wright just breeched the tolerance of many people.

 

[Chickpea]

I want a President who can listen to other world leaders without passing judgement on their cultures and views. I want someone who is going to surround themselves with varying opinions. We've already seen people forced to resign from offices in the current administration who do not conform to their views.

That is exactly what I want as well - being a non-American, living in, and loving this country, I am also desparate to undo the arrogance and stubborn defiance of the Bush years and I am so so eager for someone who will seemingly open up dialogue with many world leaders.

 

[Jdarg]

Good morning political forum!

It appears that if posters agree on a viewpoint or support the same political candidate, then they are considered to be ganging up. This is especially true if the people agreeing also happen to be friends.

I agree with Buster. This is the political forum. Instead of reputation points, maybe we should hand out big girl panties.

For the record, Buster and I have never met, so we are not going to gang up to give anybody that special similar treatment everyone is so worried about.

 

[Jdarg]

That is exactly what I want as well - being a non-American, living in, and loving this country, I am also desparate to undo the arrogance and stubborn defiance of the Bush years and I am so so eager for someone who will seemingly open up dialogue with many world leaders.

Obama is very appealing to me for this very reason. I think our years of blindly assuming that the USA is "all that and a bag of chips" is over- apparently the entire world does not think so.

 

[Chickpea]

Obama is very appealing to me for this very reason. I think our years of blindly assuming that the USA is "all that and a bag of chips" is over- apparently the entire world does not think so.

I have found it very interesting to read some of the europeans newspapers and listen to what they are saying - FWIW, we are far from the only ones seemingly enamoured with a candidate - the Italians and the French are gushing!!!

 

[Alicia Leonard]

Good morning political forum!

It appears that if posters agree on a viewpoint or support the same political candidate, then they are considered to be ganging up. This is especially true if the people agreeing also happen to be friends.

I agree with Buster. This is the political forum. Instead of reputation points, maybe we should hand out big girl panties.

For the record, Buster and I have never met, so we are not going to gang up to give anybody that special similar treatment everyone is so worried about.

Good point Jdarg. Time to put your big girl britches on or come over to the lounge. That's why I stay in the lounge when things get redundant or too hot in here

I would like to say I appreciate everyones point of view. I am still one of the undecided and in the end it will be the posters who maintain their composure and make their points clearly that might influence my decision in this race.