Potentially pointless political pontification

[Leader of the Banned]

So troops are now supposed to Mirandize potential terrorists. Gee can I buy you a beer? Cant we just talk this out? Why are you guys so mean? Maybe since we have had this nice productive conversation maybe you will stop beheading people...your own people too by the way. What? Lets just have Obama read them a Bible verse or two, that will change things for sure.

I can't make the connection between our inhumane treatment of prisoners as punishment and a reduction in beheadings.

 

[carson]

They are means to a political end. We use(d) torture for information, information allegedly leading to the capture and killing of Bin Laden. Was it pleasurable for the CIA agents...maybe..did they do it for ****s and giggles..possibly. Is that wrong? Of course it is. Point being, people seemed to be really ecstatic when Obama took credit for finding and killing Bin Laden. The Director of the CIA was quick to point out the connection and continuation of these practices between Presidencies. So on one hand it is evil Dick Cheney, but on the other "let's run like hell from the renegade CIA" Deflecting?

There are very conflicting reports on the number of US soldiers captured in Iraq and not a lot of stories on their treatment while in captivity. My guess is that they didn't make it out alive to discuss their fine dining options and lavish receptions that they encountered.

 

[poppy]

Your claim about the value of information obtained has been reliably refuted and proven to have been obtained prior to any torture used, but that isn't the point. It matters not the quality of information gathered, what matters is it was done in our name and it is against our values and laws. The CIA knew it was illegal which is why they repeatedly lied to the country about it and destroyed evidence and video tapes.

Edit: if Obama doesn't ask for open hearings and demand the criminals be brought to justice then he is no better than those who committed these atrocities in the name of our country.

 

[Leader of the Banned]

They are means to a political end. We use(d) torture for information, information allegedly leading to the capture and killing of Bin Laden. Was it pleasurable for the CIA agents...maybe..did they do it for ****s and giggles..possibly. Is that wrong? Of course it is. Point being, people seemed to be really ecstatic when Obama took credit for finding and killing Bin Laden. The Director of the CIA was quick to point out the connection and continuation of these practices between Presidencies. So on one hand it is evil Dick Cheney, but on the other "let's run like hell from the renegade CIA" Deflecting?

I don't think you are deflecting, just drifting. All I asked was of what benefit is it to inflict cruel and unusual punishment just for the sake of punishment. That's what it seemed like you were condoning, or at least were willing to turn a blind eye.

There are very conflicting reports on the number of US soldiers captured in Iraq and not a lot of stories on their treatment while in captivity. My guess is that they didn't make it out alive to discuss their fine dining options and lavish receptions that they encountered.

Again, I'm not sure how our mistreatment of prisoners would change this situation. If you are looking at our torture of prisoners as justifiable revenge, then just come out and say it. Also, I think that the outrage over our servicemen getting unspeakaby brutal treatment goes without saying. I don't know anyone of any political persuasion who doesn't find this deeply disturbing. Unfortunately, the same can't be said for our mistreatment of prisoners. A lot of people, mostly conservative, condone it. That's why people, mostly on the left are so vocal about it. The fact that our torture is lightweight compared to theirs doesn't lend a lot of support to any of your views. There are people in our prison system who have committed unspeakble acts of brutality. Would you like to the laws changed and corporal punishment reinstituted in order to deal with them?

 

[carson]

Your claim about the value of information obtained has been reliably refuted and proven to have been obtained prior to any torture used, but that isn't the point. It matters not the quality of information gathered, what matters is it was done in our name and it is against our values and laws. The CIA knew it was illegal which is why they repeatedly lied to the country about it and destroyed evidence and video tapes.

Edit: if Obama doesn't ask for open hearings and demand the criminals be brought to justice then he is no better than those who committed these atrocities in the name of our country.

This just a cross section, clearly skewed to who it happens to benefit. Panetta says info from the "enhanced GITMO interrogation was used to find Bin Laden"
https://search.yahoo.com/search;_yl...e+of+bin+laden&fr2=sb-top-search&fr=yfp-t-414

 

[Leader of the Banned]

Conservatives have now gone off the deep end. Their alternate universe bubble is now their permanent residence. It should come as no surprise since their official religious symbol over the last 2000 years is a torture device.

Brutal religions foster brutality among the followers.

 

[carson]

Again, I'm not sure how our mistreatment of prisoners would change this situation. If you are looking at our torture of prisoners as justifiable revenge, then just come out and say it. Also, I think that the outrage over our servicemen getting unspeakaby brutal treatment goes without saying. I don't know anyone of any political persuasion who doesn't find this deeply disturbing. Unfortunately, the same can't be said for our mistreatment of prisoners. A lot of people, mostly conservative, condone it. That's why people, mostly on the left are so vocal about it. The fact that our torture is lightweight compared to theirs doesn't lend a lot of support to any of your views. There are people in our prison system who have committed unspeakble acts of brutality. Would you like to the laws changed and corporal punishment reinstituted in order to deal with them?[/QUOTE]

I do not see it as gratuitous revenge. If it produces information that ultimately protects lives, then yes I suppose I condone it. What is completely ridiculous is to say, that although it was introduced under Bush, that it was not acknowledged by Obama. "I didn't know", that isn't a defense. I am not going to debate what level of torture defines torture. The fact that those rare few who escape any radical Muslim detainment are a hand full at best. A vast majority of the GITMO detainees were returned..and were back on the battlefield.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_...tainees_alleged_to_have_returned_to_terrorism

 

[Andy A]

First let's talk about drinking the Kool Aid. My personal opinions, Abortion--It is your body, your decision. Gay Marriage - Marry your parakeet if you want. Gun Control - I don't have guns, don't like them and do not see a need for them. Start hunting clubs, cops use tazers. Marijuana - Smoke up Johnny. Education - Needs improvement, might start with paying teachers more and bringing in educators, not baby sitters. Taxation - We seemed to do okay until 1913 without an IRS, flat tax across the board, corporations too. Immigration - When you have the answer you let me know. Minimum wage - A fair wage, not simply to meet a ridiculous demand. Entitlements - only with stipulations for re-education and personal accountability. Religion - not in school and pray to who or whatever makes you be a better person. States rights - all for it, limited Federal government. Military - Required 1 year of service at 18. Keep the peace, have the ability to defend your way of life (after all we have all of these new friends to protect). We had very good, long time friends in the World Financial Center and at the Marriott on 9/11 who fortunately were not hurt, but they lost friends in the Trade Center, so I may have a skewed opinion on the military I suppose.

I could add more. I don't like to be placed in a box and labeled. I prefer to pick and choose what I believe, you know that free thinking idea. Now on the other hand, I can look at your comments and generally surmise that you are unbending, fanatically left wing, Republican hating individual. Personally, if there were a viable third party I feel fairly confident that I would be carrying their flag.

So at this point I would give you the famous biblical passage of "He who lives in glass houses should not cast stones, or bricks, or rocks...ya know."

FYI--I do not watch Fox News, I do not listen to Hannity or Limbaugh. I don't own guns, or really go to church for that matter, I hang a little to the right though..ya know.

You know, carson, you are a very intelligent, pragmatic individual. It was nice to see some rational response to our issues instead of the ramblings of misinformed syncopaths.

 

[poppy]

The rightwing is going to continue to believe, even in the face of all the evidence against it, that torture was extremely effective. They will condone it and even cheer the continued use of it even though it goes against everything our country stands for. Even Panetta admits that we'll never know if the bits of useful information beaten out of individuals could have been obtained using other methods.
Andy, the level of your hypocrisy is astounding and your ignorance is unmatched. Your signature line says it all. Your hypocrisy is you mistrust the government, but you will trust them when it comes to telling you what they think you need to know. Your ignorance is relying on your life experience instead of facts that are there for the taking.

I like this quote, not sure who it's from.

“Coercive interrogation practices have historically only proven effective in support of propaganda campaigns, where small kernels of truth are surrounded by a litany of falsehoods and unfounded allegations. Effective national security policies can only thrive when driven by reliable intelligence information; there is no place for questionable, coercion-based information within the U.S. justice, intelligence, or security processes.”

 

[Matt J]

You know, carson, you are a very intelligent, pragmatic individual. It was nice to see some rational response to our issues instead of the ramblings of misinformed syncopaths.

Yeah Seaducer got banned.