Public vs Private Beach [threads merged]

The State parks do a great job keeping the dunes apart from 'customary use' with minimal posts and rope. Use the same logic with gulf front owners....especially the ones that have put out hundreds of feet of 'walkover'. They are all trying to establish new property lines for themselves.

This issue should have been addressed several years ago instead of kicking the issue down the road. Now we have come to a place where our economy is threatened and there is a real danger that our area could lose millions of economic impact which means the livelihoods of thousands of Walton County citizens could be adversely effected. If the vast majority of the beach is private then everything north of 30-A and old 98 is going to experience a huge drop in value. Since a large portion of the business traffic is generated by those properties, then the amenities (restaurants, stores, attractions etc.) are going to experience a significant decrease in profits and many will be unable to sustain their business model and will close. Without these amenities the area will be less attractive to many visitors and the beachfront properties themselves will experience a drop in profitability. Since many in the North end make their living working in the South, the loss of business will cost them their jobs and they will move on which will hurt the North economy and so the entire county is regressing economically. Tax revenue will decrease and county government will suffer. In order to make up for the revenue shortfall government will raise the tax rates which will significantly impact the beachfront properties and force many to sell or move into foreclosure. Before long you will have the ghost town a few seem to desire and the rest of us will be poorer or will have left to find an area that has the foresight to protect and defend their economy. It would be better for everyone if we could agree to work together and find common ground, but if not, then we must move to protect what has taken hundreds of years and much blood, sweat and tears to produce. The beaches have historically been common ground and our economic model has always been built on this premise. Private beaches in the long-term only benefit a very small minority of our citizens. But it will destroy the rest of us. It is what it is.

This issue should have been addressed several years ago instead of kicking the issue down the road. Now we have come to a place where our economy is threatened and there is a real danger that our area could lose millions of economic impact which means the livelihoods of thousands of Walton County citizens could be adversely effected. If the vast majority of the beach is private then everything north of 30-A and old 98 is going to experience a huge drop in value. Since a large portion of the business traffic is generated by those properties, then the amenities (restaurants, stores, attractions etc.) are going to experience a significant decrease in profits and many will be unable to sustain their business model and will close. Without these amenities the area will be less attractive to many visitors and the beachfront properties themselves will experience a drop in profitability. Since many in the North end make their living working in the South, the loss of business will cost them their jobs and they will move on which will hurt the North economy and so the entire county is regressing economically. Tax revenue will decrease and county government will suffer. In order to make up for the revenue shortfall government will raise the tax rates which will significantly impact the beachfront properties and force many to sell or move into foreclosure. Before long you will have the ghost town a few seem to desire and the rest of us will be poorer or will have left to find an area that has the foresight to protect and defend their economy. It would be better for everyone if we could agree to work together and find common ground, but if not, then we must move to protect what has taken hundreds of years and much blood, sweat and tears to produce. The beaches have historically been common ground and our economic model has always been built on this premise. Private beaches in the long-term only benefit a very small minority of our citizens. But it will destroy the rest of us. It is what it is.

AMEN

Just saw a post on Facebook touting a new condo in Seagrove with 335ft. of "PRIVATE BEACH"...the blame should be put right were it all starts.. with the developers,realtors, and PR firms advertising our beaches like this in order to make a mere $48 million off of a 2 (maybe 3) acre site...complete with 31 units. With sites like this saying that the beach is private its no wonder we have people thinking it is private. I think if some of them got sued for false advertising they would stop selling/telling people the whole "PRIVATE" thing

Exactly. The conspicuous silence from real estate agents (except from a couple of them) agreeing with Customary Use is deafening.

Well I am about to make some folks mad, but if the beach in front of your house is private and I can't walk on it, sit on it, or lay on it, then you should not receive any money from FEMA, or any other source to fix your property when/if you have damage from a storm.

Well I am about to make some folks mad, but if the beach in front of your house is private and I can't walk on it, sit on it, or lay on it, then you should not receive any money from FEMA, or any other source to fix your property when/if you have damage from a storm.

Red Dawg, it may come as a shock to you, but there are many of us on the beach who bought our Gulf-front property fully cognizant of the risks and expenses associated with potential storm losses and have never intended or desired public assistance in rebuilding from any storm losses.

I bought prepared to accept the risks and expenses that might come from storm damage to my home here, and I don’t want your money or anyone else’s to cover my losses, with the caveat that I pay large premiums for insurance policies with large deductibles, very large in the case of storm damage. I expect those with whom I have a binding contract to honor their end of our agreement should the need arise.

Those are private contracts I pay with my money to firms in the business of selling such insurance. I have never participated in Cover Florida other than paying what amounts to an excise tax on my private insurance premiums with a private company to subsidize insurance coverage for others, not for myself. Am I perhaps subsidizing your homeowners or car premiums, or do you also decline to accept public funds and subsidies by declining to use Cover Florida?

In the event I lost my entire investment and my home in a big storm, that should not be your responsibility or cost you a penny. I’m fine with that. It is, after all, my private property. I don’t want FEMA grants or anyone else’s money.

Do you think ranchers in Montana or any of the three or four coal miners left in Appalachia should pay a penny to cover your losses in the event of a storm? I don't think they should have to cover mine. With rights come responsibilities. I’ve always accepted my responsibilities for the consequences of my own actions. Hope you are of a similar mindset.

And by the way, I, like many on the beach and off it, am a law-abiding, charitable person who gives greatly of himself and his time and money to others, and I have for decades. The Alinskyites are, as is the usual case, falsely maligning others for their selfish purposes. ALL lives matter. Yours, mine and our neighbors and our fellow Americans.

I’m old enough to fondly remember JFK’s admonition to “Ask not what your country can do for you….” If you don’t know the rest of that statement, it’s worth your while to look it up.

Red Dawg, it may come as a shock to you, but there are many of us on the beach who bought our Gulf-front property fully cognizant of the risks and expenses associated with potential storm losses and have never intended or desired public assistance in rebuilding from any storm losses.

I bought prepared to accept the risks and expenses that might come from storm damage to my home here, and I don’t want your money or anyone else’s to cover my losses, with the caveat that I pay large premiums for insurance policies with large deductibles, very large in the case of storm damage. I expect those with whom I have a binding contract to honor their end of our agreement should the need arise.

Those are private contracts I pay with my money to firms in the business of selling such insurance. I have never participated in Cover Florida other than paying what amounts to an excise tax on my private insurance premiums with a private company to subsidize insurance coverage for others, not for myself. Am I perhaps subsidizing your homeowners or car premiums, or do you also decline to accept public funds and subsidies by declining to use Cover Florida?

In the event I lost my entire investment and my home in a big storm, that should not be your responsibility or cost you a penny. I’m fine with that. It is, after all, my private property. I don’t want FEMA grants or anyone else’s money.

Do you think ranchers in Montana or any of the three or four coal miners left in Appalachia should pay a penny to cover your losses in the event of a storm? I don't think they should have to cover mine. With rights come responsibilities. I’ve always accepted my responsibilities for the consequences of my own actions. Hope you are of a similar mindset.

And by the way, I, like many on the beach and off it, am a law-abiding, charitable person who gives greatly of himself and his time and money to others, and I have for decades. The Alinskyites are, as is the usual case, falsely maligning others for their selfish purposes. ALL lives matter. Yours, mine and our neighbors and our fellow Americans.

I’m old enough to fondly remember JFK’s admonition to “Ask not what your country can do for you….” If you don’t know the rest of that statement, it’s worth your while to look it up.

Actually, we are paying for it because what impacts your beach impacts mine. To protect mine we have to protect yours. As for private contracts let's look at contracts with regard to large corporations who agree with employees on pensions and then give them to the government to administer. If those folks you have contracts with can't or won't pay guess who will be.

It's a crying shame the beach was ever made private. It is a mess that is going to bring out the worst in humanity. The only people who are going to be happy are the lawyers. I have heard beachfront owners say they don't want help. They want the beach. If there is a problem, they want to solve it. They want their beach left to their care.

Well I've seen what that care involves. Doing whatever they want after a storm by building illegal seawalls and dumping illegal sand. You can try to justify it but I feel certain those seawalls are going to make erosion worse in the long run. And that most of them are going to end up destroyed and scattered all over the beach with a cleanup bill of a billion dollars.

Red Dawg, it may come as a shock to you, but there are many of us on the beach who bought our Gulf-front property fully cognizant of the risks and expenses associated with potential storm losses and have never intended or desired public assistance in rebuilding from any storm losses.

I bought prepared to accept the risks and expenses that might come from storm damage to my home here, and I don’t want your money or anyone else’s to cover my losses, with the caveat that I pay large premiums for insurance policies with large deductibles, very large in the case of storm damage. I expect those with whom I have a binding contract to honor their end of our agreement should the need arise.

Those are private contracts I pay with my money to firms in the business of selling such insurance. I have never participated in Cover Florida other than paying what amounts to an excise tax on my private insurance premiums with a private company to subsidize insurance coverage for others, not for myself. Am I perhaps subsidizing your homeowners or car premiums, or do you also decline to accept public funds and subsidies by declining to use Cover Florida?

In the event I lost my entire investment and my home in a big storm, that should not be your responsibility or cost you a penny. I’m fine with that. It is, after all, my private property. I don’t want FEMA grants or anyone else’s money.

Do you think ranchers in Montana or any of the three or four coal miners left in Appalachia should pay a penny to cover your losses in the event of a storm? I don't think they should have to cover mine. With rights come responsibilities. I’ve always accepted my responsibilities for the consequences of my own actions. Hope you are of a similar mindset.

And by the way, I, like many on the beach and off it, am a law-abiding, charitable person who gives greatly of himself and his time and money to others, and I have for decades. The Alinskyites are, as is the usual case, falsely maligning others for their selfish purposes. ALL lives matter. Yours, mine and our neighbors and our fellow Americans.

I’m old enough to fondly remember JFK’s admonition to “Ask not what your country can do for you….” If you don’t know the rest of that statement, it’s worth your while to look it up.

Yes, I remember JFK's admonition. Very pleased you have covered yourself, sorry to say don't think everyone has. Again this was my opinion of the situation. Just don't agree the beach should be private. I would never go onto your steps, or boardwalk, but your beach should be available for me or anyone to walk, sit or lay on. I understand some tourist don't respect private property and when they rent a home or condo feel like they own the whole 26 miles. But when you choose to live in a tourist based area you should have known you would have to deal with all types, good and bad.

I am not interested in denigrating anyone or impugning their motives. We are all in this together. Many of us are "all in" as we have invested everything we have in Walton County. So we need to work together. No matter what anyone prefers or does not prefer, nature and years and years of decisions have made this a premier tourist destination. Killing the TDC is not going to change that but fences and barriers will. Being unfriendly will too. So we need to recognize that everyone benefits from the amenities that the tourist industry brings to the area. The tourists pay for the beach cleaners and lifeguards. Property taxes pay for the increased law enforcement patrols. Everyone will pitch in to help when another storm hits us. If you have a fire or a medical emergency people like Bob Wells will risk their life to save yours. All that is required of anyone is to act like a good neighbor and be part of the community. Fences and unfriendly signs are counter-productive as are vendors invading private property and people encroaching on private walkovers and improvements. This issue would be best solved if everyone would just go back to circumstances 8 years ago and then work on solutions for the problems that existed and led us to this place. But if we cannot find our way back, then a divisive and bitter fight will ensue because people's livelihood is at stake.

It's a crying shame the beach was ever made private. It is a mess that is going to bring out the worst in humanity. The only people who are going to be happy are the lawyers. I have heard beachfront owners say they don't want help. They want the beach. If there is a problem, they want to solve it. They want their beach left to their care.

Well I've seen what that care involves. Doing whatever they want after a storm by building illegal seawalls and dumping illegal sand. You can try to justify it but I feel certain those seawalls are going to make erosion worse in the long run. And that most of them are going to end up destroyed and scattered all over the beach with a cleanup bill of a billion dollars.

Odd how on the plats they used to permit those seawalls the beach is identified as public.

Defuniak Herald » Citizens ask commissioners to ensure public access and use of the beach

Story and photos by DOTTY NIST


IN RECENT YEARS, more and more claims to private beaches have been made in connection with beachfront parcels by condominiums, resorts, and individual property owners.

-WALTON- Citizens attending a workshop on the issue of the public’s access to the beach overwhelmingly asked the county commission to confirm and ensure their ability to enjoy the beaches in Walton County.
Held at Emerald Coast Middle School on March 16, the Walton County Board of County Commissioners (BCC) workshop attracted an estimated 425 people, according to calculations by Walton County Public Information Director Louis Svehla.
The workshop was livestreamed on YouTube. As of the morning following the meeting, Svehla said that YouTube had reported 305 views.
All county commissioners were in attendance at the workshop with the exception of District 3 Commissioner Bill Imfeld, who was away in Washington, D.C., on behalf of the county.

Information on customary use

During the first part of the workshop, the commissioners and attendees heard from David Theriaque, an attorney with the Tallahassee-based Theriaque & Spain legal firm, on the topic of customary use, a.k.a, the Doctrine of Custom....

Odd how on the plats they used to permit those seawalls the beach is identified as public.

That is a broad generalization. There may be some walls that infringed on public beach, but most were actually within the confines of the property boundary. Perhaps you have just seen an area where there is some infringement.

What's ancient and customary is the battle between the "haves and the have nots". And I don't mean that in a mean spirited way. Until the County, TDC and local developers were overly successful in increasing and promoting the usage density in our area, there was not really an issue with the occasional "trespass" on private property beach front property. We all tried to get along - and did so for the most part without signs and ropes.

Most of us (I believe) who "bought" beach front property did so for the love of the laid back nature of our area - not for the conscious execution of keeping others off the beach.

But now, things are changing due to growth. Some say for the better and some say for the worse. I'm somewhere in between. I've heard it (and said it) a thousand times - "It's so much nicer here than in Destin and Panama City" and I sincerely believe it's because of the historical restraint placed upon growth in our area. But historical growth restraint is about to fly out the window.


So.....I offer this thought for your consideration:
After this recent beach workshop meeting, it is blatantly obvious that the majority of the population (and government officials) want the beach to be public regardless of the means or ramifications.

I propose that we immediately remove the 4 story building limit in exchange for deeding the private beach front property over to the county and allow high rises to be built like they have in Destin and Panama City Beach. After all, isn't this the direction we're heading? Shouldn't everyone in the world have the opportunity to visit our beaches once they become public? Wouldn't that be just peachy for business owners and the local struggling economy? Why not?...Soon we will have a brand new bridge feeding the frenzy. And shouldn't we expect the county's investment in roads, bridges and infrastructure to be recouped from more tourists' money?

The beach front owners could sell their property for more money and the public would get their beach. Everybody is a winner!

Actually, this already happened (more or less) at the the off-beach Redfish Village Condo Associstion (80 units) who owns a beachfront lot near the BMB Regional Access. The county allowed them to use their lot for private beach access against all existing county regulations ONLY BECAUSE Redfish Village allowed the public full easement rights to the this small beachfront lot (this was one of the ordinance exceptions in this matter). I challenge you to count how many "public" tourists are using their lot vs. the wall to wall of Redfish RED umbrellas that are set up in the morning before the public even wakes up.

As a side note, isn't this the same problem occurring at public accesses? In my opinion. the government allows beach vending on public beach where there shouldn't be any.


Back to customary use:
In any sense of the word, this would be a taking of private property without compensation.

I just heard someone say, "What the hell are you talking about? This is a taking based on customary use!" No, customary use is a very convenient way of saying, "You have it - we want it."

I guess to be fair, we should support the Native Indian's customary use rights to hunt and live anywhere they see fit. Shouldn't they should have full rights to all private and government property including everyone's backyard, parks, businesses, even the beach? Yea, I didn't think so. At least when the white man removed the Native Indian from THEIR land at GUNPOINT, the white man provided them with reservations (a very minimal compensation, by the way, for disrupting their way of life). But now they have casinos!

So far, I've heard nothing regarding compensation for what I consider to be a taking. As a matter of fact, unless the beach front owners just simply bend over and take it, it will COST them significant legal fees just to protect what is rightfully and legally theirs (based on the white man's records at the courthouse). And from first hand experience, most of the county commissioners do not give a damn about how much a private citizen has to spend to defend their legal rights. And if one can't afford to fight, one will lose against the county regardless of the issue.

Simply put, be careful what you wish for. The beach is a finite resource regardless of who "owns" it.

Letter Walton County Beaches | Northwest Florida Daily News

Posted Mar. 30, 2016 at 9:00 AM

The public beaches of Walton County are being turned into private beaches by beachfront property owners. How can they do that? They hired lawyers to do it. Now is the time for the public, through the county, to hire a lawyer to defend our right to use the beach.The Doctrine of Customary Use affirms the right of the public to use the dry sandy portion of the beach no matter who holds the title.Beachfront property owners have cried that recognizing the right of the public to use the beach is a taking.

At the March 16 public hearing, beach access expert David Theriaque stated that recognition of customary use is not a taking of private rights. He further stated that “customary use is well recognized and established in Florida and other jurisdictions.”Another objection of beachfront property owners is that they will be liable for incidents that happen on their property.

Theriaque stated on March 16 that “absent gross negligence, there is no exposure to the property owner.”Tourism in Walton County is all about the beaches.

While tourists are here enjoying the beaches they spend billions of dollars paying rent, eating at restaurants and spending money at small businesses. Tourists will find somewhere else to spend their money if the no trespassing signs on the beaches persist.The cost of doing nothing will cost the county much more in the long run.

Walton County must hire a beach access expert now.

- CELESTE COBENA, Santa Rosa Beach

It is really amazing how some people have no respect or regard for owners that actually own their beachfront property, worked hard to get it and purchased it legally.

Sounds like a lot of people are very envious of these owners and are using the "tourists will leave" argument to push their agenda of jealously along.

The tourists won't leave. Hopefully the recent (past few years) of ignorant and inconsiderate ones will, but the real tourists, the one's we want here, will stay.

The County needs to be focusing on buying as much of the vacant lots that they can and improving the beach accesses.

I also think the Beach Vendor issue is embedded in this as well and they are also to blame for this backlash. Many of them think they "own" the beach.

Just came back from a beach walk - blue mountain beach main public access to the Ed Waline public access.

The first thing you see while stepping off the beach stairs are 2 private beach signs directly to the west side of the public access portion of beach; one sign is posted up by the dunes and the second sign down by the wet sand.

The entire signed beach front is staked near the wet sand from one end to the other with beach umbrellas; much like a picket fence.

Signs simply state "private beach". They appear to be marking the beach in front of the small 4 home development directly adjacent to the public access.

Then continuing westbound you run into private beach signs located in front of the blue mountain beach villas/condos development.

After that are more private beach signs located in front of the village of white cliffs. These signs state that people on their beach must display wrist bands; and they also encourage their guests to report violators.

All these no trespassing signs are pushing visitors to beach areas east of the access and in front of the old blue mountain beach development.

I will try to go back out this evening and take some pictures.

Oh wow. Beach signs are multiplying and public beach access is in real danger. I hope the County can find a solution and fast.

I'm not envious of any Gulf front property owner. If I owned a gulf front home, I would not try to keep people from "my" beach. This is unheard of until very recently, unless it is a larger private resort property. Even then, people should be able to walk through and hang out within reason. I can't imagine going to Grayton Beach and having a homeowner tell us we had to get off the beach. It is just not done.

These are photos of the signs I referenced in my earlier post today. The signs have a been moved back toward the dunes since it is now 5:30 pm and people and chairs are leaving the beach.

During the day they are placed from mid beach and toward the wet sand. A visitor walking down the beach could easily interpret the signs to mean that they are not allowed to even walk the wet sand beach area.

Anyway, the beach is starting to look like a war zone of no trespassing signs. It's not as much fun to walk the beach.

View attachment 59506 View attachment 59505

@John G this is how beachfront owners take care of "their" beach. Owning beachfront is ludicrous. The beach belongs to the people!
Oh and by the way, you can't see it in this photos but this is in Gulf Trace which has dozens of septic tanks and drain fields just under the sand where children play.

Illegal geotubes and seawalls all up and down OUR beaches. Disgusting!

@jkmason thanks for taking the time to post photos. Wow.

"Anyway, the beach is starting to look like a war zone of no trespassing signs. It's not as much fun to walk the beach"

Agree. Signs, posts, roped off areas not welcoming at all; changes the whole dynamic for the worst IMHO. Sad. Wristbands?!!!! are you kidding!?

I'll step out on this limb John G. I'm coming to visit for 10 days starting next week. I'm bringing a couple who've never been to Walton County beaches. They vacation multiple times per year with us. I lived in the Santa Rosa Beach area for about 5 years.
Our intent is to enjoy the white sand my Wife and I miss so much. I hope we discover a turtle nest while there. I was a turtle walker when I lived there.

If all I find when I attempt to introduce new friends to my favorite beach to be on is no trespassing signs, I guarantee you this will drive me away from wanting to visit Walton county.

Perhaps some folks think the reason I come back is because I met a few cool people at a beach party. You'd be wrong. I came for the beach. I'm coming back for the beach. And, if the beach isn't available, I have plenty of options I will absolutely consider without question. Good luck affording Walton county without tourists.

I'll step out on this limb John G. I'm coming to visit for 10 days starting next week. I'm bringing a couple who've never been to Walton County beaches. They vacation multiple times per year with us. I lived in the Santa Rosa Beach area for about 5 years.
Our intent is to enjoy the white sand my Wife and I miss so much. I hope we discover a turtle nest while there. I was a turtle walker when I lived there.

If all I find when I attempt to introduce new friends to my favorite beach to be on is no trespassing signs, I guarantee you this will drive me away from wanting to visit Walton county.

Perhaps some folks think the reason I come back is because I met a few cool people at a beach party. You'd be wrong. I came for the beach. I'm coming back for the beach. And, if the beach isn't available, I have plenty of options I will absolutely consider without question. Good luck affording Walton county without tourists.

Ash, let's say I like to visit where you live. I enjoy watching birds or some other wildlife.

There is a local park about a half mile from your home

But I like to set up "camp" the front yard of your home, which you own and have a deed to.

How will you address the issue of me (tourist to your area), now hanging out in your front (or back) yard?

I appreciate the comparison, although I don't think they compare as a black and white line. The beachfront property owners have property that backs up to the Gulf of Mexico that has different jurisdictional definition than landlocked lines. The gulf waters and immediate beach belongs to the United States. The disputed wet/moist/dry sand is the sticking point between property owners and beach goers.

This will be the difficult one to sort out. I agree, there are many who aren't playing fair. This is where I truly feel for the owners and can understand them pushing their rights in an effort to get some sort of relief from those who abuse the beaches.

This goes both ways too. I can show you private property signs sticking up out of the Gulf of Mexico many feet from any sand. Probably sitting there at Dune Allen yet this morning. TDC trucks are running across the sand North of the sign.

So back to your question about setting up camp. You're an owner of beachfront property. You walk down to the beach from you home and pause at the waters edge and look at all that beautiful sand beach just begging for you to go for a walk on. But, alas, your neighbor's both have signs right down to the waters edge marking "their" private property and all you can do is sit on "your" sand and not go for that walk. There are those who will go this far.