Public vs Private Beach [threads merged]

A thought and a question for the group...

Question: Where is the "high water mark" on our beaches? Is it a fixed line or does it change with erosion/addition of the beach itself? From what I have read this seems to be surrounded by controversy.

Thought: If the high water mark is "owned by the public" and assuming there is enough dry sand included within the high water mark, could this designation be used to create an ordinance to preclude commercial businesses (aka beach chair vendors) from setting up within the high water mark zone? This would allow the public to set up closer to the water and hopefully reduce the beach hogging empty beach set up problem we have. It would also ad some clarity to the public and beach property owners around allowable use.

Most of the businesses in these developments are individually owned by our friends and neighbors. Please come up with another idea if you want to use the beach in the town where they operate.

Kurt, I was being a tad facetious. But the truth is many of the restaurants pay rent to the very same entities that own private beach front property. Yet nobody bad mouths these entities as being "mean and greedy". It's just a little hypocritical.

added: BTW, there is one restaurant on this list that I have never visited although everybody else I know has. I do it out of principal because because I rigorously disagree with the owner's position regarding this subject from years ago. Yet the restaurant is one of those who greatly profits from operations in an area that enforces private beach. It's hypocrisy in its purest form.

And I sincerely doubt they miss my business.

From the NOAA

high water mark

A line or mark left upon tide flats, beach, or along shore objects indicating the elevation of the intrusion of high water. The mark may be a line of oil or scum on along shore objects, or a more or less continuous deposit of fine shell or debris on the fore shore or berm. This mark is physical evidence of the general height reached by wave run up at recent high waters. It should not be confused with the mean high water line or mean higher high water line.

I think the problem is that HWM has not been determined with any scientific studies ordered by the BCC because they keep kicking the can down the road.

.......On the other hand, as Misty and others have pointed out, tax dollars have played a major role in the upkeep and enhancement of the beaches and taxpayers have a right to use what their taxes pay for.....

Care to elaborate on this comment as it relates to un-nourished private beach front property?

Innocent Question: I thought the public beaches were paid for by everyone's taxes. And, the private beaches were paid for by owners taxes. Like public schools, you pay and if you go private, you pay that too. ?

Are you suggesting that the private landowners in question are paying to maintain what they consider is their private beach? I'd dearly love to see some receipts for that....because the Federal government has ascertained that beaches are public up to the HIGH TIDE mark.

Are you suggesting that the private landowners in question are paying to maintain what they consider is their private beach? I'd dearly love to see some receipts for that....because the Federal government has ascertained that beaches are public up to the HIGH TIDE mark.

I am only asking a question. No other motivations.

Innocent Question: I thought the public beaches were paid for by everyone's taxes. And, the private beaches were paid for by owners taxes. Like public schools, you pay and if you go private, you pay that too. ?


I am only asking a question. No other motivations.

I didn't think you had any other motivation honestly but if those private property owners maintain their private beaches (not the County and not the FEDS) they should be able to prove that.

Care to elaborate on this comment as it relates to un-nourished private beach front property?

I think the comment speaks for itself. If the County or FEDS maintain it with taxpayer dollars it's not private property.

There's one theme that seems to ring true on this thread.

Not many people seem to like the idea of beach vending on public beach except beach vendors who vend on public beach, of course.

Based on personal observation and by reading messages here on SoWal, the "quality" of a public beach visit would be greatly improved if beach vending on public beach simply went away. I believe this would be a very simple measure to implement if the BCC had the will. Of course, they won't have the will unless the public puts pressure on their commissioners. And it would help if the commissioner(s) didn't have any personal interest in that line of business else recuse themselves from a vote.

And this could be done on a beach by beach basis where there is limited room vs. high usage.

This is a very simple step in improving "the beach experience" in my humble opinion.

What's ancient and customary is the battle between the "haves and the have nots". And I don't mean that in a mean spirited way. Until the County, TDC and local developers were overly successful in increasing and promoting the usage density in our area, there was not really an issue with the occasional "trespass" on private property beach front property. We all tried to get along - and did so for the most part without signs and ropes.

Most of us (I believe) who "bought" beach front property did so for the love of the laid back nature of our area - not for the conscious execution of keeping others off the beach.

But now, things are changing due to growth. Some say for the better and some say for the worse. I'm somewhere in between. I've heard it (and said it) a thousand times - "It's so much nicer here than in Destin and Panama City" and I sincerely believe it's because of the historical restraint placed upon growth in our area. But historical growth restraint is about to fly out the window.


So.....I offer this thought for your consideration:
After this recent beach workshop meeting, it is blatantly obvious that the majority of the population (and government officials) want the beach to be public regardless of the means or ramifications.

I propose that we immediately remove the 4 story building limit in exchange for deeding the private beach front property over to the county and allow high rises to be built like they have in Destin and Panama City Beach. After all, isn't this the direction we're heading? Shouldn't everyone in the world have the opportunity to visit our beaches once they become public? Wouldn't that be just peachy for business owners and the local struggling economy? Why not?...Soon we will have a brand new bridge feeding the frenzy. And shouldn't we expect the county's investment in roads, bridges and infrastructure to be recouped from more tourists' money?

The beach front owners could sell their property for more money and the public would get their beach. Everybody is a winner!

Actually, this already happened (more or less) at the the off-beach Redfish Village Condo Associstion (80 units) who owns a beachfront lot near the BMB Regional Access. The county allowed them to use their lot for private beach access against all existing county regulations ONLY BECAUSE Redfish Village allowed the public full easement rights to the this small beachfront lot (this was one of the ordinance exceptions in this matter). I challenge you to count how many "public" tourists are using their lot vs. the wall to wall of Redfish RED umbrellas that are set up in the morning before the public even wakes up.

As a side note, isn't this the same problem occurring at public accesses? In my opinion. the government allows beach vending on public beach where there shouldn't be any.


Back to customary use:
In any sense of the word, this would be a taking of private property without compensation.

I just heard someone say, "What the hell are you talking about? This is a taking based on customary use!" No, customary use is a very convenient way of saying, "You have it - we want it."

I guess to be fair, we should support the Native Indian's customary use rights to hunt and live anywhere they see fit. Shouldn't they should have full rights to all private and government property including everyone's backyard, parks, businesses, even the beach? Yea, I didn't think so. At least when the white man removed the Native Indian from THEIR land at GUNPOINT, the white man provided them with reservations (a very minimal compensation, by the way, for disrupting their way of life). But now they have casinos!

So far, I've heard nothing regarding compensation for what I consider to be a taking. As a matter of fact, unless the beach front owners just simply bend over and take it, it will COST them significant legal fees just to protect what is rightfully and legally theirs (based on the white man's records at the courthouse). And from first hand experience, most of the county commissioners do not give a damn about how much a private citizen has to spend to defend their legal rights. And if one can't afford to fight, one will lose against the county regardless of the issue.

Simply put, be careful what you wish for. The beach is a finite resource regardless of who "owns" it.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Sorry I put you to sleep. It must have been that embedded violin music used to emphasize my post. But assuming you're now awake, can you PLEASE respond to your comment below? I asked about it a couple of weeks in message #26 but never heard back from you. So are the 3 accesses in your neck of the woods private or public?

So glad I live in Old BMB, owners own ALL (3) access points( state of Florida approved not TDC)..they put those silly PVC vendor only signs between two of our accesses pointing toward each other over 800' of beach. They came back in a few days and removed ALL signage TDC/ code enforcement have NO sign authority own our neighborhood beaches. FYI we have a few lots left to build on just sayin.

Care to elaborate on this comment as it relates to un-nourished private beach front property?

The TDC pays for the beaches to be cleaned. No other private property gets such treatment. In fact, it is against the law for county equipment to so much as spread a load of dirt on private property. So, if county crews cannot work on private property north of 98, why should they work on private property south of 98? There is no public benefit if the public cannot go on the property.

The TDC pays for the beaches to be cleaned. No other private property gets such treatment. In fact, it is against the law for county equipment to so much as spread a load of dirt on private property. So, if county crews cannot work on private property north of 98, why should they work on private property south of 98? There is no public benefit if the public cannot go on the property.

Danny, I have followed many of your posts for the past few months and have learned quite a bit from you. I believe you are an upstanding person with a good moral compass. I know you are much more tuned in with county politics and procedures than I am - and probably most people who post here.

But...yes there's a but. When I asked you to elaborate on your comment, I couldn't possibly imagine how you could defend it.

Let's all understand one big thing regarding this topic. The TDC is the entity that "cleans" the beach as you call it. The only thing they do is occasionally empty the garbage on a regular basis. They do not do anything else on our beach. And truthfully I'm not content that they even come on our beach to do that.

And I've even seen the "public" use the garbage cans. BTW, we didn't even ask for or put the garbage receptacles in place that you mention. TDC took it upon themselves.

With that said, ALL funds that the TDC use for this garbage collection come from the bed tax. Not ONE SINGLE PENNY comes from the ordinary tax payer in Walton County.

With as much BED tax that beach front property owners pay into the Walton County TDC coffers, do you really think they are "unfairly" providing services to beach front property owners and therefore the public is entitled to use it?

I still like your posts but now I can officially say that I don't agree with all of them.

Thank you for the kind word BMBV and it is OK that you do not agree with me all the time, the world would be pretty dull if there was no dissent and discussion. Let me be clear, I have no problem with bed taxes being used to clean and maintain the beaches. But those dollars are tax dollars, no matter who the payer of the tax is. Those funds are being entrusted to the government to use effectively and efficiently. Using tax funds to maintain property that has no public use or function is not effective or efficient. If there is no public function then the tax should be discontinued or the funds used elsewhere like purchasing beachfront that the public can use and enjoy.

With that said, ALL funds that the TDC use for this garbage collection come from the bed tax. Not ONE SINGLE PENNY comes from the ordinary tax payer in Walton County.

Really now? That's a pretty broad claim!

Are you suggesting that taxpayers in WC don't pay a penny in bed tax? I friends who vacationed down there just this past weekend (who are from here, local business owners and taxpayers) that had to pay the bed tax just as any tourist has to do. Maybe I should suggest to them that they tell the proprietors that they shouldn't have to pay the bed tax because they live work and pay taxes in Walton County. Wanna bet that would go over like a turd in a punch bowl?

IMO, the TDC doesn't need to spend any more money on pamphlets in Southern Living. Walton county is a really amazing place and we have enough people who know about it to continue to have good tourist revenue. But the experience been on a decline for a while now. How about spending some money to keep it nice? How about spending some money to make it better?

I try to be a good steward to our community and our environment. You wouldn't believe how many bags of garbage my family and I have picked up over the years. But we need some help. We need some leadership. We need some more enforcement so the few bad apples don't ruin it for all of us.

Vending on the public beaches makes it hard on the locals. I realize we're not responsible for the kind of revenue that tourists are, but we all live here and expect some representation from our government. Vendors are a minority of the locals. The rest of us just want to go to the beach after 7 am and have a place to hang out and enjoy the day. Vending has gotten out of control at public areas and we need some changes that favor the locals. Frankly, I would be happy if vending was banned on public beaches altogether.

I envy the gulf front property owners. And I sort of understand the no trespassing signs, but not down to the water line. I don't know what the solution is here, but I would like to be able to walk along the gulf from Grayton to BMB without being harassed. I'd also like to be able to sit and enjoy the gulf near the water away from private structures, quietly and respectfully anywhere I want. Is this too much to ask from our gulf front owners?

Danny, I have followed many of your posts for the past few months and have learned quite a bit from you. I believe you are an upstanding person with a good moral compass. I know you are much more tuned in with county politics and procedures than I am - and probably most people who post here.

But...yes there's a but. When I asked you to elaborate on your comment, I couldn't possibly imagine how you could defend it.

Let's all understand one big thing regarding this topic. The TDC is the entity that "cleans" the beach as you call it. The only thing they do is occasionally empty the garbage on a regular basis. They do not do anything else on our beach. And truthfully I'm not content that they even come on our beach to do that.

And I've even seen the "public" use the garbage cans. BTW, we didn't even ask for or put the garbage receptacles in place that you mention. TDC took it upon themselves.

With that said, ALL funds that the TDC use for this garbage collection come from the bed tax. Not ONE SINGLE PENNY comes from the ordinary tax payer in Walton County.

With as much BED tax that beach front property owners pay into the Walton County TDC coffers, do you really think they are "unfairly" providing services to beach front property owners and therefore the public is entitled to use it?

I still like your posts but now I can officially say that I don't agree with all of them.

Do you rent your home for a short term. Without renting your property and remitting the tax to the TDC I am not sure you pay the tax. I have lived and owned property for approximately 15 years and have never had to pay the TDC tax.

The vending problem and the access problem go hand in hand. The TDC needs to divert resources to improving infrastructure and amenities along the beaches and purchase more beachfront to alleviate the pressure on the private owners. There is not a magic wand solution but there are several smaller things that can be done to improve the situation and combined will make everyone happier. Vending should be by franchise at the regional accesses and the items should be delivered from kiosks north of the dunes. Then only those items actually rented will be on the beach. The private owners should have control over vending on their property.

A thought and a question for the group...

Question: Where is the "high water mark" on our beaches? Is it a fixed line or does it change with erosion/addition of the beach itself? From what I have read this seems to be surrounded by controversy.

Thought: If the high water mark is "owned by the public" and assuming there is enough dry sand included within the high water mark, could this designation be used to create an ordinance to preclude commercial businesses (aka beach chair vendors) from setting up within the high water mark zone? This would allow the public to set up closer to the water and hopefully reduce the beach hogging empty beach set up problem we have. It would also ad some clarity to the public and beach property owners around allowable use.

According to Florida Statutes the Mean High Water Line (MHWL) can only be determined by a current topographical survey done by a registered surveyor. It varies by year because it is based on a 17 year average. Most topo surveys are only valid for a year. They are very costly and I am sure that most beachfront property owners only get the one they are required to have at the beginning of construction. But in order for them to say one is trespassing, they need to prove that they ACTUALLY own the sand in question.

According to Florida Statutes the Mean High Water Line (MHWL) can only be determined by a current topographical survey done by a registered surveyor. It varies by year because it is based on a 17 year average. Most topo surveys are only valid for a year. They are very costly and I am sure that most beachfront property owners only get the one they are required to have at the beginning of construction. But in order for them to say one is trespassing, they need to prove that they ACTUALLY own the sand in question.

Yes, this is correct and it is also part of what I'm trying to get folks eyes to see. A survey is Part of the WCSO SOP and must be included in the packet you give to them. That, along with clear, easy to read signs are also part of the requirement for a beach front property owner to receive services as it relates to Trespassing on their property.

I'm sure most owners don't want to jump through all the hoops and spend the $2000+ for the nice little packet.

Before everyone dismisses the sheriff's culpability in why signs are popping up, do a little research.

Does anyone know if the wcso sop addresses the mean high tide water line and the right of the public to transit and set up on the beach below that line?

My wife and I were booted off the beach at Sanctuary by the Sea. We were in our chairs about 10' from wet sand and probably 50-100' seaward from the mean high tide water line.

Their signage has become more aggressive over the last couple of years. Here is one of their signs.

Really now? That's a pretty broad claim!

Are you suggesting that taxpayers in WC don't pay a penny in bed tax? I friends who vacationed down there just this past weekend (who are from here, local business owners and taxpayers) that had to pay the bed tax just as any tourist has to do. Maybe I should suggest to them that they tell the proprietors that they shouldn't have to pay the bed tax because they live work and pay taxes in Walton County. Wanna bet that would go over like a turd in a punch bowl?

SERIOUSLY?

We should give up our property because your friends vacation here (who are from here from what you've said) and have to pay bed tax? That makes no sense whatsoever. The logic in your post is a real discredit to the other arguments presented here.

SERIOUSLY?

We should give up our property because your friends vacation here (who are from here from what you've said) and have to pay bed tax? That makes no sense whatsoever. The logic in your post is a real discredit to the other arguments presented here.

According to current law and the Constitution of the State of Florida the land your claiming is private belongs to the very people you're trying to keep out.

IMO the people posting those signs are nothing more than squatters...rich, self entitled, snobbish, squatters at that.

Thank you for the kind word BMBV and it is OK that you do not agree with me all the time, the world would be pretty dull if there was no dissent and discussion. Let me be clear, I have no problem with bed taxes being used to clean and maintain the beaches. But those dollars are tax dollars, no matter who the payer of the tax is. Those funds are being entrusted to the government to use effectively and efficiently. Using tax funds to maintain property that has no public use or function is not effective or efficient. If there is no public function then the tax should be discontinued or the funds used elsewhere like purchasing beachfront that the public can use and enjoy.

Danny, I appreciate your feedback.

If I could, I would drastically cut back the TDC's functions. This area does not need more promotion as most of us know.

Now, you keep mentioning beach maintenance. Do you REALLY qualify the emptying of garbage cans as beach maintenance? That's a little disingenuous.

Keep in mind that most of the money paid into TDC comes from beach front rental properties:
Seaside,
Watercolor,
Watersound,
Rosemary Beach,
Alys Beach,
One Seagrove Place,
Adagio,
Bella Vita,
and many, many more beachfront complexes and individual homes.

So, if these are the properties that contribute tremendously to the TDC funds, don't you think the emptying of garbage cans is the least these properties should get for the money they directly generate - especially considering the TDC took it upon themselves to provide this service in the first place? Besides no other "garbage collection" vehicles are allowed on the beach.

Let's keep the discussions on the up and up.

Yes, this is correct and it is also part of what I'm trying to get folks eyes to see. A survey is Part of the WCSO SOP and must be included in the packet you give to them. That, along with clear, easy to read signs are also part of the requirement for a beach front property owner to receive services as it relates to Trespassing on their property.

I'm sure most owners don't want to jump through all the hoops and spend the $2000+ for the nice little packet.

Before everyone dismisses the sheriff's culpability in why signs are popping up, do a little research.

Why is it the upland property owner has to prove their southern boundary?

Why doesn't the county / state simply prove their northern boundary? After all, if the public is being unfairly discriminated against (wet sand vs. dry sand and all), wouldn't the use of TDC funds be wise for this purpose?

What about the millions that were paid for the beach nourishment engineering and the associated surveys? Who has access to those surveys? Didn't those surveys define the MHWL? The erosion control line (ECL) was supposed to be established from that line.

It truly saddens me when fellow neighbors bring up the burden of proof argument.

Danny, I appreciate your feedback.

If I could, I would drastically cut back the TDC's functions. This area does not need more promotion as most of us know.

Now, you keep mentioning beach maintenance. Do you REALLY qualify the emptying of garbage cans as beach maintenance? That's a little disingenuous.

Keep in mind that most of the money paid into TDC comes from beach front rental properties:
Seaside,
Watercolor,
Watersound,
Rosemary Beach,
Alys Beach,
One Seagrove Place,
Adagio,
Bella Vita,
and many, many more beachfront complexes and individual homes.

So, if these are the properties that contribute tremendously to the TDC funds, don't you think the emptying of garbage cans is the least these properties should get for the money they directly generate - especially considering the TDC took it upon themselves to provide this service in the first place? Besides no other "garbage collection" vehicles are allowed on the beach.

Let's keep the discussions on the up and up.

Let's keep it on the up and up. The TDC benefits many communities and individuals by providing information on a location, Walton in general and Sowal particular. That being said because you as a rental owner benefit already from the service which is to bring folks down rent your property. Which in my opinion is more than enough, but as it is better that the TDC pick up the garbage for the betterment of our community as a whole and is a minimal cost to keep our beach clean. As for thinking the TDC doesn't do much else except promotion and cleaning, I would also dispute that, I believe they have placed sand up and down our beaches.