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Carol G

Beach Fanatic
Jan 15, 2007
1,920
223
Point Washington
Finally, in regards to living on a barrier island, that is incorrect. Sowal's underlying geology is a a Pleistocene Mainland complex. In simple terms, barrier islands were formed in the past 14k years during the Holocene Period and since the last low sea level stand. That is the thin layer of white sand that you see that overlays the Pleistocene Mainland. As seen after the hurricanes, the underlying dunes are not white quartz sand. They are iron stained quartz formed from between about 1.5 million years ago and 14,000 years ego. That is the Pleistocene Mainland complex that makes up the majority of sowal.

I never knew that, I always thought the exposed dark orange sand was from previous faulty dune restoration attempts - very cool info, thanks!
 

BeachSiO2

Beach Fanatic
Jun 16, 2006
3,294
737
"for all practical purposes" was part of the living on a barrier island in my statement. i was speaking in regards to the the erosion on our beach fronts being the same as for instance Pensacola Beach/Santa Rosa island.

Beach scrapings adding volume to dunes (wishful thinking) is only true until the next wave washes the softened sand away to a new location. And my point was that adjacent beaches are affected and negatively. When you start at the water line and scrape to the dunes line you lower the beach which allows even smaller waves to rush to the dune base.

Lakes being low spots makes sense as a catchers mitt for debris. And of course the erosion from a 25 foot strorm surge with 20 foot waves on top will be much more destructive than just thousand of pounds of floating debris crashing into the dunes "all by it self." But i would not call the effect of the structues bashing dune tops and middles minimal.

As you mentioned i do believe future erosion in the non fortified natural areas will be accelerated by adjacent beach activities. I was not around in 1872 but in 1952 i can tell you that there were hundreds of higher more majectic dunes from Pensacola to to Mexico Beach and i may be wrong on nature vs. development which knocked down more dunes but my guess would be the big "D".

BH

I want you to know that my point was not to argue with you but to outline that there has been a tremendous amount of scientific data that has been collected and analyzed about SOWAL and to highlight some of the things that have been learned. Here's another attempt.

One it isn't accurate to compare Walton County to ANY other area in Florida. We are a pleistocene mainland, not a barrier island and are not subject to overwash like barrier islands. Our 25-60 foot high dunes do not allow that process to occur so that is a red herring.

Secondly you stated that scraping only places sand at the dune until the next storm. I agree but how is that any different than aeolian transport. The sand that is blown from the beach naturally to the dunes is also loose and will likely wash away at the next storm. I was not debating the effect of the scraping on the beach but since you mentioned it. In Walton Cty after Ivan, it consisted of the movement of sand along the waters edge to the toe of the dune not across the entire beach and was a miniscule amount that provided emergency protection for TS Arlene. No scraping was done after Dennis. That being said, there was a study conducted in Walton Cty that documented after Opal that the beaches that were scraped recovered as quickly as the beaches that were not scraped so they could not discern a negative impact. That study was commissioned by the FDEP.

As for structure impacts, I was once again speaking of a specific time period from before Ivan to after Dennis. There was only about a 6-8 ft storm surge with about a 2-4 ft wave and Ivan was largest storm on record to have impacted sowal since the late 1800's. In this case the waves impacted the bottom of the dunes leading to more of a cliff failure scenario where the toe is washed out and the top falls. Not an overwash so structures were primarily bouncing around the beach and toe of the dune. The losses were on the order of 20-30 cubic yards of sand per foot of beach in some areas. As an expert in this field, I would say with some level of confidence that structure impacts were minimal compared to water. Moreover the damage of foot traffic if walkovers weren't used where we have the high dunes would lead to more damage to the dune system than storm debris.

Finally, I agree that the number one danger to the beach and dunes in Sowal is improper siting of structures along the dune areas in Walton County. However, we haven't seen those impacts yet, and won't until those structures are hit by waves and storm surge.

On a side note, this is a lot of typing on a PDA so I expect some rep points ;)
 

Busta Hustle

Beach Fanatic
Apr 11, 2007
434
34
Great stuff bsio...i have not compared walton county to any other areas of florida only the effects of beach erosion to the beach FRONTS and most forward dune systems. i agree that we are miles from north to south and not a sand bar, wash over from beach to bay will not occur. however i'm pretty sure there were 60 ft. dunes recently(geologically speaking and say the last 100 years) as close as Dune Allen and Miramar that are no longer there due in large part to the houses and walkovers as much as waves. So thinking that a 25 or even 60 foot dune 'will not allow wash over' making my arguement a red herring, smells a litle fishy.

I also believe that walkovers are a much greater destructive force on the dune system than a walkover path topped with natural materials. The post sunk into the dune system being yanked out by waves leave gapping holes and then do more than minimal damage to the down flow beach fronts.

The difference from aeolian transport and scraping is that tax dollars are not spent.and while i will not argue that the scrape beaches may have recovered for now the lowering of elevation in one area negatively effects the adjacent beach.

As a non expert in the field i would agree that the structural damage from walkover debris was minimal COMPARED to the water damage.(common sense) It however added to the destruction at the point of yank out and bash and drag points. We will have to disagree on the fact that foot traffic would be more destructive. The simple fix for foot traffic is to add a little more sand and natural materials and not millions for screws nails bolts wood trex labor and then labor trucks dumpsters, $$$ and land fills for debris and then more labor etc. etc for the rebuild.

We have already seen a huge impact of improper siting and unfortunately may see more. The west end of the county is the best example. What was the total $$$ spent on west end restoration? I thank you sharing the info from your studies.
 
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BlueMtnBeachVagrant

Beach Fanatic
Jun 20, 2005
1,346
399
You know, this has been one bastardized thread. It was a spin-off thanks to Kurt to published beach access. Then "we" rehashed public vs. private because some felt it necessary. Then we got into beach nourishment because of the ECL and public implications. Now some are debating holes in the sand left from ripped out walkovers during a storm cause significant damage.

BeachSiO2, although I may strongly disagree with many of the "political" viewpoints with the county and TDC (which you may or may not share), I do believe you know your profession. Too bad others can't or won't see that. And I don't say that lightly.
 

Busta Hustle

Beach Fanatic
Apr 11, 2007
434
34
Andy the pass itself and the jetty at east pass adjacent to officers club beach towards brooks has greatly accelerated the destruction of that area.
 

Andy A

Beach Fanatic
Feb 28, 2007
4,389
1,738
Blue Mountain Beach
BeachSiO2, I am definitely with BMBV on this one as much as we disagree on other issues. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize you know what you are talking about. Thanks for the great posts and much needed information.
 

Busta Hustle

Beach Fanatic
Apr 11, 2007
434
34
bmbv i suport you legal deeded given right to throw folks off your private beach as long as you are self or privately insured and the deed that gives that right was not done against state federal or laws of nature. I trust you will never accept county state or fema money. i also support your efforts to stop the wasteful practices of beach restoration. I also support your efforts to dissolve Citizens Insurance. I know you only want what is yours and what you can keep with out assistance from the gov. and your fellow citizens.
 

wrobert

Beach Fanatic
Nov 21, 2007
4,132
575
62
DeFuniak Springs
www.defuniaksprings.com
BH
One it isn't accurate to compare Walton County to ANY other area in Florida. We are a pleistocene mainland, not a barrier island and are not subject to overwash like barrier islands. Our 25-60 foot high dunes do not allow that process to occur so that is a red herring.

When you say overwash, is that meaning total flooding of the area? I know during Hurricane Opal, a cat 1 storm at landfall, that Dune Allen area was flooded with houses on the north side of 30A having water 8-10 feet inside. And many of the dunes are no longer present as they were before the storm. And after those were taken, instead of allowing them to rebuild, houses were put in their previous locations.

Also it is very hard to believe that Walton County is totally unique in it's makeup. How in the world did God know where we were going to place the county lines? Oops! Stupid question.
 

BlueMtnBeachVagrant

Beach Fanatic
Jun 20, 2005
1,346
399
bmbv i suport you legal deeded given right to throw folks off your private beach as long as you are self or privately insured and the deed that gives that right was not done against state federal or laws of nature. I trust you will never accept county state or fema money. i also support your efforts to stop the wasteful practices of beach restoration. I also support your efforts to dissolve Citizens Insurance. I know you only want what is yours and what you can keep with out assistance from the gov. and your fellow citizens.
BH, you're extrapolating a little on the heavy side here...not worthy of a real response.

Aaahh what the hell...

1. I will defend my rights to my private property.
2. I haven't accepted county or state money because they haven't offer it.
3. I haven't received any "free" FEMA money. Are you non-supportive of those in NOLA who have accepted FEMA money for losses incurred from Hurricane Katrina (insured or uninsured)?
4. Who said anything about dissolving Citizens Insurance which would affect all property owners, not just gulf front? But I know you know that. Right? I just can't understand why you mention it here.
5. Yes, I would like to keep what is mine.

I believe I've covered all your points.
 

Smiling JOe

SoWal Expert
Nov 18, 2004
31,644
1,773
Beachsio2 said:
That being said, there was a study conducted in Walton Cty that documented after Opal that the beaches that were scraped recovered as quickly as the beaches that were not scraped so they could not discern a negative impact. That study was commissioned by the FDEP.
If this study was done after Opal, and it proved that beaches which were not scraped, recovered as quickly as the beaches which were scraped, why the hell did scraping continue after Katrina?

Also, if you listen to enough old timers around here, they will tell you about a time when supposedly the Gulf waters washed all the way down what we now call Bay Drive. Isn't that a washover?
 
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