Study on Geotubes in Texas

As sad as this one taken of the beach at Blue Mtn Beach recently?

OK, I'll bite (not I bite for the benefit of my detractors) ;-) . What's the significance of this picture?

TIA

Dear Dave R,
Thank you.
It is horrible to see so graphically how the seawalls and geotubes that private BF owners have put up will destroy our beautiful beaches.

What is predictable and also disturbing is that the seawall owners are pressuring the county to use tax dollars to assist them pay for their seawall environmental ?take? and the mitigation plan.

The county is already helping the beach front owners by facilitating the writing of a grant to help pay for the take and mitigation plans and currently plans to charge the seawall owners a fee. I support this facilitation.

But the seawall owners want more. Seawall owners are lobbying for a county wide ?blanket plan?. This indeed would be a nice ?cozy security blanket? for the seawall owners.

The ?blanket plan? that the seawall owners are seeking is ?code? for placing costs for the seawall take and mitigation plan on the taxpayers .


Do we really want the county subsidizing or encouraging seawalls which are notorious for destroying beaches?

This is to be discussed at the next BCC meeting. We should all call the county commissioners to tell them what we think. You can bet many seawall owners are.

There you go again, ecopal. This thread is titled "Re: Study on Geotubes in Texas". Your post was the first to go significantly off topic. Dave R started the thread with factual report regarding geotubes in Texas. Heck, I even provided some additional information backing his observation created by an engineering company for Florida DEP regarding the Cape San Blas area. I thought this was appropriate for this post.

I appologize to Dave R for jumping on his thread to call you down on the mis-information you continue to spout in such a manner as to do nothing but create antagonism.....remember that word?

"What antagonism is that SOB BMBV talking about now??" I'll tell ya....

You said "What is predictable and also disturbing is that the seawall owners are pressuring the county to use tax dollars to assist them pay for their seawall environmental ?take? and the mitigation plan. " You have a tendancy of using absolute terms. "...the seawall owners" implies ALL seawall owners in my mind. I don't, nor my neighbors to the east, nor my neighbors to the west don't have a clue of what you're talking about. But you must be factually correct because you're everyone's ecopal.

In just your first (one sentence) paragraph, you use, questionable at least, image inducing words such as horrible, graphically, destroy. The only part I agree with in your first paragraph is "beautiful beaches".

Ecopal, I, yes me, will not not allow you continually post facts that are unchallenged and for the most part unsubstantiated. Even worse, you are accomplishing very little except for alienating me and a lot of my good BMB neighbors. Do you somehow take comfort in that? Your vendetta seems as if it's more personal than ECO-logical.

It just seems, for whatever reason, nobody really wants to "reach out and touch you". So I've appointed myself to provide some fair and balance response to your postings.

We, GF property owners, (I believe) are willing to pay for our fair share of the the take and mitigation permit. Who is telling you otherwise? Maybe I can drop them a post .

Ecopal, you do not know all the causes for the erosion problems, nor do you have all the answers, nor do you have the inside scoop on conspiracy theories regarding retaining wall owners and the county. OR DO YOU? If so, please share your sources.

One other statement you made above NEEDS SERIOUS ATTENTION...
You said, "Do we really want the county subsidizing or encouraging seawalls which are notorious for destroying beaches?"

Not that I agree that my retaining wall is destroying beaches, why do you insist that the county is subsidizing our retaining wall? Of course you had to throw in your aggenda "notorious for destroying beaches" in the same sentence.

Serious dialog is something I see lacking in your posts. Your posts are typically one way soapbox grandstands. OTOH, I TRY to induce dialog. I want to EXCHANGE ideas. I will not try to pass off "self perceived facts" as absolute and factual without some kind of back up.

It's very tough to tolerate some of your posts (without responding as I have) when you verbally pedal your agenda (with an alarmist flair) against "all" GF owners such as you have above without recourse.

Respectfully,
BMBV

As sad as this one taken of the beach at Blue Mtn Beach recently?

What is that?

more upsetting to me is the looks of the beach at Blue Mtn Beach. .......

Smiling Joe,

I agree with most of your assessment.

Here's how I see "it". BMB has a lot of older beach style houses. Many were built before a CCCL even existed (from what I understand). The cost basis that some of these owners have in these homes is very low. Some of those owners may not have the financial means to just throw in up to $200,000 for a decent retaining wall and sand. And don't forget, some people are just "financially imprudent" = cheap.

So.. an owner asks him or herself, why should they put in a lot of money to protect this old structure. So they don't. They look for the lowest bid for the type of wall they want.

So what happens... contractors with experience mainly in bay or land based construction now solicit jobs on the beach which require more expertise (in my opinion) that it does on the bay or land.

The contractors started off with a low bids because of (I believe) inexperience. Some owners managed to lock in these bids with a contract. What I notice is that some of these contractors became stretched out as they executed, with the large amount of work they received and also, because of inefficiency.

The speed, efficiency and professionalism of our contractor completely dwarfed (in my opinion) the majority of contractors out there. This is not just my opinion by the way.

What's the point of the above you ask?.................
I too see the same craziness in regards to material, equipment (both functioning and non-functioning) and so on.

Located east of the 83 access, I once mentioned on a post that a composite wall that was going in. The driven sheet piles looked like crooked teeth on a red neck who can't spell the word dentist (sorry if I offended anyone ). Now they have been yanked back out like bad teeth, the last I saw. Are they starting over? I'm not sure. Maybe you saw, SJ? But now the April 30th deadline is bearing down on everyone. Talking about pressure for some. If they don't finish by then, the wall may be open to destruction if we get hit during the summer before they can come back during the winter to finish.

There are good contractors and there are bad contractors. I believe a few local contractors got in over their head and simply can't perform to the level needed for a good retaining wall that is built to withstand forces of a seawall.

About your statement....
"HOWEVER, what the phuck were they thinking not bringing it back at least as far as the cliffs which were exposed in the previous storms? That will be the first one to wash out after the first decent sized storm."

Now you're sounding like me with my concern for one of my neighbor's inferior wall. In addition, because of that, I asked our contractor to "extend" the end curtain wall adjacent to the inferior wall a few more feet up to the bluff.

You'll also notice (probably buried now), that the return wall for the house just west of the 83 access went back quite a ways for the same reason you're discussing.

SUMMARY:
I believe BMB will clean up nicely, no real worries here. Just hang in there. I and my neighbors certainly have. I bought in to this area for its beauty. I still believe it's there. I will personally try to do anything I can to preserve it (believe it or not).

Today's weather was gorgeous. The beach looked gorgeous (other than the above). The tourists are upon us. Restaurants are packed again. Our retaining wall is finished. Our walkover is in. Things are looking up from my perspective.

Let's take it one hurricane season at a time. We're getting good at that.

Ro does not have a fax machine (seriously) and while he has an email address, Email: cucro@co.walton.fl.us, he has no idea how to use a computer, ;-) so unless someone retrieves his mail and prints it for him, he will not see it. Also, forget about Ro doing anything outside of his own interests.

OK, I'll bite (not I bite for the benefit of my detractors) ;-) . What's the significance of this picture?

TIA

The significance is that you will think the sand in this photo looks bright white when those geotubes get ripped open and leak all of the dirt (not to be confused with sand) onto the beaches. The sand in the photo is a far cry from the white powder which used to be on the beach. This new sand is a mixutre and includes some of the brown sand, probably not meeting the Munsel scale requirement prescribed by local Walton County Law, which was imported onto the beach.

Much of the sand placed in front of this newly installed seawall behind a condo just west of the regional beach access in Blue Mountain Beach has already begun to wash away. Will homeowners be able to keep sand in front of these walls or will we be left with a narrow beach bordered by a stark seawall? Will we have any beach at all?"

Here's just another example of the slanted view and spin you put on things. You are your own worst enemy.

Since you like to document all the gloom and doom and be an alarmist while you're at it....

1. Why didn't you photograph the beach a couple of hundred feet east of there and couple of hundred feet west of there at the same instant? If you did, your "other" pictures would have shown how unusually wide the beach was in both of those of those places compared to the one place you photographed. You know how the waterline changes shapes.

2. Why didn't you, at least, qualify the current conditions of the weather when you shot these pictures. You know damn well how unusual the conditions were that day. Without any clarification, one just assumes just another normal sunny day. BUT YOU DON'T HAVE THE BEACH BALLS TO MENTION IT WHATSOVER IN YOUR POSTS. It just might not be in the interest of supporting and continuing your propaganda. Imagine that.

3. You use words "Much of the sand .... has already begun to wash away." What is your definition of "Much"? Is it 50%? Is it 40%? Is it 30%? Is it 20%? Is it 10%? Please tell me. Once you do, I'll give you my estimate.

What really really really pisses me off about your post, is that you've upset CastlesofSand.....

This pic makes me really sad.

Feel better? Sleep tight.

Ro does not have a fax machine (seriously) and while he has an email address, Email: cucro@co.walton.fl.us, he has no idea how to use a computer, ;-) so unless someone retrieves his mail and prints it for him, he will not see it. Also, forget about Ro doing anything outside of his own interests.

I admit it was more of rhetorical smart-@ss type of question. No disagreement.

I suspect the county will be saddled with the tab to maintain and repair seawalls and geotubes.

The argument from the GF owners will be: (1) You (the county)"allowed" them to be built in the first place (same argument for allowing seawall protection of the GF homes that were "allowed" to be built); and (2) The beach is the cash cow of the community, without it this resort is nothing.

The dye has been cast, the seawalls and geotubes are here...this is now SoWal's future. The county needs to start assessing higher taxes (homeowners & bed) in preparation for this inevitable expense.

Shelly,

Don't worry, I'm maintaining my "maintenance free" retaining wall.

However, most of the walls are built on private property and are private property themselves. I would imagine if a wall weakened to the point of being a danger, the county could force the homeowner to remove it or repair it at the homeowner's expense.

If a wall failed and disappeared, the county should come up with a "standardized" cleanup fee based on footage and type of material that will be assessed back to the owner. I support that. It's another expense that forces owners to "put their money where their retaining wall is".

I don't know about the private retaining walls on public property thing. It would make sense that they would be handled to the same.

Shelly,

Now that I know what SJ's dark sand picture was all about, I realize I didn't provide a complete response. That is...

What happen's when a geotube fails? Again, it's the responsibility of the homeowner to repair.

But... if it fails in a major way, I guess SJ is inferring the darker color will "pollute" our beach. This is a problem that's not easily cleaned up (regarding the dark sand itself).

Anyone else with an idea?

Funny what a lot of people fail to understand is there will be no beach behind these seawalls. We won't be able to walk down the beach anymore; just swim along the walls.

Funny what a lot of people fail to understand is there will be no beach behind these seawalls. We won't be able to walk down the beach anymore; just swim along the walls.

Dave,

Do you think anybody here truly fails to understand that possibiliy?

I've expressed your concern in several one on one conversations as the worse case scenario...not a great image, I admit.

Since you started this thread, I had suggested to others (this thread or the other?) that renourishment is the only real practical solution. I acknowledge that a few others did say they supported beach renourishment but the "intensity" of the discussion of this VERY important soultion is a little wanting.

Did anyone read the front page article in the mid-week Destin Log regarding the partially completed beach renourishment project? Seems to be a success all the way around (so far).

I would like to hear some discussion on where we go from here. We might be beating the retaining wall issue to death.

Can we all agree on this?... Some walls will survive. Some walls will fail. Geotubes will help somewhat. Some geotubes will survive. Some geotubes will fail.

Now, Dave, do you believe in renourishment? I think this will prevent the "worse case scenario" that you and I fear.

Somehow, I wonder if some people are really not addressing the renourishment issue in a significant way because if it is successful, it makes the whole retaining wall issue a moot point. Then these threads would not be quite as fun ! ;-)

Respectfully,
BMBV

Dave,

Do you think anybody here truly fails to understand that possibiliy?

I've expressed your concern in several one on one conversations as the worse case scenario...not a great image, I admit.

Since you started this thread, I had suggested to others (this thread or the other?) that renourishment is the only real practical solution. I acknowledge that a few others did say they supported beach renourishment but the "intensity" of the discussion of this VERY important soultion is a little wanting.

Did anyone read the front page article in the mid-week Destin Log regarding the partially completed beach renourishment project? Seems to be a success all the way around (so far).

I would like to hear some discussion on where we go from here. We might be beating the retaining wall issue to death.

Can we all agree on this?... Some walls will survive. Some walls will fail. Geotubes will help somewhat. Some geotubes will survive. Some geotubes will fail.

Now, Dave, do you believe in renourishment? I think this will prevent the "worse case scenario" that you and I fear.

Somehow, I wonder if some people are really not addressing the renourishment issue in a significant way because if it is successful, it makes the whole retaining wall issue a moot point. Then these threads would not be quite as fun ! ;-)

Respectfully,
BMBV

I do recall DR supporting dredge and fill of all the beaches. Maybe not the best solution but a compromise which seems to be moving forward and funds will be provided for, at least for the first few times it happens.

Here's just another example of the slanted view and spin you put on things. You are your own worst enemy.

Since you like to document all the gloom and doom and be an alarmist while you're at it....

1. Why didn't you photograph the beach a couple of hundred feet east of there and couple of hundred feet west of there at the same instant? If you did, your "other" pictures would have shown how unusually wide the beach was in both of those of those places compared to the one place you photographed. You know how the waterline changes shapes.

2. Why didn't you, at least, qualify the current conditions of the weather when you shot these pictures. You know damn well how unusual the conditions were that day. Without any clarification, one just assumes just another normal sunny day. BUT YOU DON'T HAVE THE BEACH BALLS TO MENTION IT WHATSOVER IN YOUR POSTS. It just might not be in the interest of supporting and continuing your propaganda. Imagine that.

3. You use words "Much of the sand .... has already begun to wash away." What is your definition of "Much"? Is it 50%? Is it 40%? Is it 30%? Is it 20%? Is it 10%? Please tell me. Once you do, I'll give you my estimate.

What really really really pisses me off about your post, is that you've upset CastlesofSand.....


Feel better? Sleep tight.

I also find myself fighting the urge to post pictures of the worst cases. But that is what interests people and the worst photos are nonetheless valid and are pictures of reality.

The conditions of that day, while rough, are not all that uncommon. Just high surf which we have many days of they year, nowhere near the storm conditions which we have seen too much of. If nothing else the pic is an example of what we will see a lot of in the coming days. Very minor storm event in the near furure will cause boardwalks to be damaged and seawalls to be uncovered in narrow or normal stretches of beach. Not only because of natural erosion but of what is proving to be unwise lowering of beach levels by "scraping".

I also find myself fighting the urge to post pictures of the worst cases. But that is what interests people and the worst photos are nonetheless valid and are pictures of reality.

Kurt,

The urge "to post worst pictures of the worst cases" because "that is what interests people" is COMPLETELY understood by me coming from a person like you. You operate a "for profit" business. No problem... I believe in capitalism. The more readership, the more business... plain and simple. I have no problem with anything that you post yourself personally.

The conditions of that day, while rough, are not all that uncommon. Just high surf which we have many days of they year, nowhere near the storm conditions which we have seen too much of. If nothing else the pic is an example of what we will see a lot of in the coming days. Very minor storm event in the near furure will cause boardwalks to be damaged and seawalls to be uncovered in narrow or normal stretches of beach. Not only because of natural erosion but of what is proving to be unwise lowering of beach levels by "scraping".

I beg to differ about that particular day. It was somewhat unusual. But that's more academic than the meat of the current matter. BTW very little beach scraping was done after Dennis as I think you're aware...a lot of scraping after Opal (which recovered nicely) and some after Ivan.

Ecopal is a self serving alarmist. Sorry, I know I'm not suppose to call anyone names, but if the shoe fits.....

His post (#19) on this thread was a VERY slanted attempt to support is ill conceived perception that all gulf front owners are at fault for every problem that (HE perceives) exists on the beach.

You know, although Smiling Joe and I disagree on some of these issues, he does appear to possess a sense of reasoning. On one of his previous posts he said something to the effect about "looking in the mirror" when generating his thoughts on these message boards. I applaud him for that as it certainly appears there are others who think that their sh-t doesn't stink.

Kurt, ecopal picks his own battles. Let him fight them assuming you think he is incapable of defending anything he does. If so, I understand why you jumped in the middle with the post you created above.

Kurt, for what it's worth, you have a great web site. I have web site envy. But I won't slam you just because of that as opposed to some others regarding gulf front porperty owners as it would seem.

bmbv, i believe you're right with regards to the renourishment issue. it has been sidelined here due to all the discussion regarding the walls and the geotubes. i hope that the renourishment to the west will hang around through sept-nov.

i spent my summers in cape may nj, where the original(kneejerk, maybe) response to erosion was the fabrication of extremely long boulder jetty's. history has shown that jetty's will create eddies and move the sand entirely from where is was supposed to be captured. in cape may's case, to wildwood crest.

cape may has since utilized the dredge and fill method. while creating awesomely deep beaches, the sand is completely different from what we all grew up with. i think in the seawall thread, kurt(or someone) mentioned that the only suitable replacement sand is from the cut. as i'm sure we've all figured out, there's only so much down there. i'm thinking we should resign ourself to the possibility that if/when we renouresh, the sand will not be the same. could we lose our 'emerald coast' status if the new sand does not reflect the same below the water, as the current sand does?

no science here, just personal knowledge ;-)

thoughts?

BMBV, with all due respect, I think it's safe to assume that most of us are not envious of gulf front owners-- we are simply concerned for the future of our beach, as I wrote in the Seawalls thread. That's all. It's our common commodity. We want to be assured that the decision to build these walls will not drastically accelerate the loss of the beach, as some evidence seems to show. If you can allay our fears, by all means do. I for one could use some peace of mind, and I'm open to hearing all sides.

And yes, I will admit I do envy your incredible gulf view. ;-) However I'll never envy the maintenance involved in keeping up a GF property. My little one story cottage across the street is very close, low stress, and easy to replace if blown away. That's my idea of beachin' it, but to each his own. Let's keep the positive dialogue flowing, it's all educational.

It looks like we might know about the quantities of good sand available soon...and the areas the state is looking to approve.

A workshop will be held in late March or early April to discuss sand availability, state-designated ?critically eroded? areas, and recommended project areas.

Protect Walton County Beaches

.........................
Since you started this thread, I had suggested to others (this thread or the other?) that renourishment is the only real practical solution. I acknowledge that a few others did say they supported beach renourishment but the "intensity" of the discussion of this VERY important soultion is a little wanting..........................
Respectfully,
BMBV

If there is $$$ and agreement to continue east with beach renourishment, what are the chances of homeowners removing their temporary "seawall" structures and letting the renourishment protect their properties?

If the beaches were to be renourished in front of the walls, would that be a waste? By this, I am asking if the renourished area might wash and erode away in front of the walls ..... what would be the benefit then?

If there is $$$ and agreement to continue east with beach renourishment, what are the chances of homeowners removing their temporary "seawall" structures and letting the renourishment protect their properties?

If the beaches were to be renourished in front of the walls, would that be a waste? By this, I am asking if the renourished area might wash and erode away in front of the walls ..... what would be the benefit then?

I don't know the answers but there is a a fear that some homeowners will sue the county to prevent dredge and fill (nourishment) as they did in the west end project going on now. This delayed the project many years. This is another reason that a free-for-all rush to armor might prove harmful, rather than a concerted and unified effort to do what is best for all.

I can't imagine any wall being removed voluntarily.

if the renourshment was on a large enough scale, and the beaches made deep enough, wouldn't the walls be under so much sand to be rendered moot?

jr

I recently asked Brad Pickle what is next if we do renourish all of Walton Co beaches, or even just the critically eroded beaches in Walton County. He said that they would look for more sand.

Right now, they are looking for more sand. If renourishment takes place even as soon as next year, and we have storms which wash it away the following year, what next. Renourishment sounds like a decent short-term plan, but it is pointless unless done on a regular basis.

Currently, there is sand north of the Bay, but at today's costs, it is too expensive to renourish the "critically eroded" beaches. I don't think the prices will go down in the future. If renourishment continues, the County will have to lower the color standards for sand being placed on the beach, or, the TDC will have to impose greater bed taxes, or, heaven forbid, we the property owners of Walton County will be taxed for the temporary solution.

There is a long-term problem with seawalls as well as the cost of renourishment. Just my opinion. Feedback?

Trucking in sand only happens in relatively small amounts and is very expensive. The large dredge and fill (nourishment) is massive in scale compared to trucking in sand. It is a process that presumably would have to be repeated again and again to protect gulf front homes. No matter how much sand is added to the beaches it can be washed away to reveal walls and/or destroy structures.

Trucking in sand only happens in relatively small amounts and is very expensive. The large dredge and fill (nourishment) is massive in scale compared to trucking in sand. It is a process that presumably would have to be repeated again and again to protect gulf front homes. No matter how much sand is added to the beaches it can be washed away to reveal walls and/or destroy structures.

It should also be noted that much of the sand under the water is not the white color that we use to see on the beach. They have yet to locate enough supply, matching the color specs, in close proximity to make it feasible

Funny what a lot of people fail to understand is there will be no beach behind these seawalls. We won't be able to walk down the beach anymore; just swim along the walls.

Exactly. Just like at Fripp where some of our friends live. At high tide, you have to scurry for the nearest beach walkover or drown. Once when we were visiting our friends, my husband had his watch torn off his wrist while trying to escape the high-tide surge. He could have drowned.