The Pope and the Condom

[Lynnie]

I was going to Africa in 19 hundred and 98. About 10 days before leaving, the US Embassy in Nairobi was bombed and a tree smashed my house and my neighbor's house. Somehow I took this as a sign that it wasn't a good time to travel, certainly not to Africa.....or, at least not to those areas I desired.

I did quite a bit of research. One webpage had in bold face, large font type: DO NOT COME TO AFRICA FOR SEX; YOU WILL GET AIDS!

That was 11 years ago, and the situation hasn't improved.

 

[30A Skunkape]

Skunky, you agreeing with the pope's statement is like agreeing that seat belts aren't effective in preventing injury and death in autos. They, in fact, are. It just took a lot of education (and for this example- laws) to persuade folks to use them to be able to recognize their intended positive effect.

So let's set the record straight.

Our favorite Sowal MD would agree that condoms are effective in preventing HIV transmission but that it doesn't work to simply make free condoms available to people (because they might not use them or use them properly). Yes?

So back to the dope. Oh sorry- typo. I mean- pope.

If he was truly christ-like he wouldn't be lobbying against tiny pieces of latex while people are dying. In my eyes, he has blood on his hands. This will sound harsh to followers but I don't care.

The pope should be using his standing in the world to lobby for condoms along with funding for education programs to help ensure they are used properly- this will save lives. (WWJD?)

I love that he says that condoms don't work but yet he preaches abstinence.

Whoa there. Here is what I said originally:
He is right when he says condoms will not solve the problem of HIV transmission.

He is wrong when he says condoms will worsen the problem.

I stand by what I said. Condoms do NOT SOLVE the problem of HIV transmission. Can they help prevent the spread? Yes. But there is a wide gap between the concepts of 'help prevent' and 'solve'. The only solution to the HIV menace is the creation of a vaccine or an antiviral medication that kills the organism. Period.

In my opinion, the real problem here is that not enough people have access to effective HIV meds once they are infected. Squabbling over condoms and pummeling Catholic faith makes for great sport but does little to solve the true problems.

 

[Geo]

Whoa there. Here is what I said originally:
He is right when he says condoms will not solve the problem of HIV transmission.

He is wrong when he says condoms will worsen the problem.

I stand by what I said. Condoms do NOT SOLVE the problem of HIV transmission. Can they help prevent the spread? Yes. But there is a wide gap between the concepts of 'help prevent' and 'solve'. The only solution to the HIV menace is the creation of a vaccine or an antiviral medication that kills the organism. Period.

In my opinion, the real problem here is that not enough people have access to effective HIV meds once they are infected. Squabbling over condoms and pummeling Catholic faith makes for great sport but does little to solve the true problems.

In the spirit of sport, let's continue.

The reason I am busting your chops is there is a whole population out there who would misinterpret your agreement with the pope's sentiment that "condoms aren't the solution" as- condoms don't work.

I thought the seatbelt example would be effective but consider this-

There is no vaccination for e-coli bacterial infections that i know of. So if a powerful religious leader advocated against restaurant employees washing their hands after they use the restroom (because this isn't the solution to such illnesses) would you agree with the sentiment? Or would you skip the semantics and point out as an MD (and a reasonable person) that irrespective of the existence of vaccination that we should explore the cheapest/simplest/most realistic means possible to avoid transmission (in addition to continuing to seek a true cure)?

I'm not on a crusade to bash religion but feel compelled when religion becomes dangerous. I wish people would wake up to the absurdity of listening to superstitious old white men on areas of science, medicine, finanace, sexuality, etc.

The pope has power and when he uses it irresponsibly (preaching against condoms) and people die-

well, that is an outright sin...

 

[Mango]

In the spirit of sport, let's continue.

The reason I am busting your chops is there is a whole population out there who would misinterpret your agreement with the pope's sentiment that "condoms aren't the solution" as- condoms don't work.

I thought the seatbelt example would be effective but consider this-

There is no vaccination for e-coli bacterial infections that i know of. So if a powerful religious leader advocated against restaurant employees washing their hands after they use the restroom (because this isn't the solution to such illnesses) would you agree with the sentiment? Or would you skip the semantics and point out as an MD (and a reasonable person) that irrespective of the existence of vaccination that we should explore the cheapest/simplest/most realistic means possible to avoid transmission (in addition to continuing to seek a true cure)?

I'm not on a crusade to bash religion but feel compelled when religion becomes dangerous. I wish people would wake up to the absurdity of listening to superstitious old white men on areas of science, medicine, finanace, sexuality, etc.

The pope has power and when he uses it irresponsibly (preaching against condoms) and people die-

well, that is an outright sin...

The Pope advocates abstinence, the cheapest/ simplest/ most realistic means to avoid transmission. However, in lieu of discussing condoms, the Pope perhaps should have raised the issues against the historical powerful patterns of gender discrimination and neglect of women's sexuality In Africa. This is key, along with abstinence prior to marriage, in forging more Christian like family units. A married woman is rolling the dice without a condom if her husband is sexually active elsewhere. Toots is right in the respect that the Pope should have been more sensitive to the culture in Africa.

 

[Geo]

The Pope advocates abstinence, the cheapest/ simplest/ most realistic means to avoid transmission.

There is one word in your sentence that ruins the whole thing. I've underlined it for you...

EDIT: But I do agree with your brilliant point that the pope missed the opportunity to use his power to address the other issues...

 

[Miss Kitty]

There is one word in your sentence that ruins the whole thing. I've underlined it for you...

Yep.

 

[Geo]

What I am about to say has gotten me thrown out of family members' homes. So I expect some heat here.

The reason the pope preaches abstinence is because he (as a priest) believes it is natural for people to sexually repress themselves (as priests have chosen to do).

[Here comes the part where I get asked to leave]

I believe that a signficant number of priests became priests because they realized they were gay during a time (the 50's and 60's) when homosexuality wasn't accepted, during a time when the nuclear family actually believed it was (gasp!) mortal sin.

I believe these men felt shame for who they were and seeked religion to save them from this evil/fix themselves and also- the priesthood was a place to hide where they wouldn't be questioned as to why they don't have girlfriends or wives.

[ready for more?]

Furthermore, I believe this is why sexual molestation is rampant among clergy. We have a group of sexually repressed middle aged gay men living together immersed in a culture with no use for women surrounded by trusting boys (no need for altar girls, nuns are second class citizens).

This went on for half a century (much longer actually if we work backwards) until society and the media became willing and able to hear and believe the stories of the abused and young gay men realized they no longer need to repress themselves and join the priesthood (instead they can come out and live fulfilling lives being themselves).

Long story short- abstinence and sexual repression is a bad idea and does not work.

Oh boy. Here I go. Getting ready to hit the Post button.

 

[LuciferSam]

What I am about to say has gotten me thrown out of family members' homes. So I expect some heat here.

The reason the pope preaches abstinence is because he (as a priest) believes it is natural for people to sexually repress themselves (as priests have chosen to do).

[Here comes the part where I get asked to leave]

I believe that a signficant number of priests became priests because they realized they were gay during a time (the 50's and 60's) when homosexuality wasn't accepted, during a time when the nuclear family actually believed it was (gasp!) mortal sin.

I believe these men felt shame for who they were and seeked religion to save them from this evil/fix themselves and also- the priesthood was a place to hide where they wouldn't be questioned as to why they don't have girlfriends or wives.

[ready for more?]

Furthermore, I believe this is why sexual molestation is rampant among clergy. We have a group of sexually repressed middle aged gay men living together immersed in a culture with no use for women surrounded by trusting boys (no need for altar girls, nuns are second class citizens).

This went on for half a century until society and the media became willing and able to hear and believe the stories of the abused and young gay men realized they no longer need to repress themselves and join the priesthood.

Long story short- abstinence and sexual repression is a bad idea and does not work.

Oh boy. Here I go. Getting ready to hit the Post button.

Nice post. This should just be a statement of the obvious. Unfortunately for many this is not so.

 

[hnooe]

I believe that a signficant number of priests became priests because they realized they were gay during a time (the 50's and 60's) when homosexuality wasn't accepted, during a time when the nuclear family actually believed it was (gasp!) mortal sin.

I believe these men felt shame for who they were and seeked religion to save them from this evil/fix themselves and also- the priesthood was a place to hide where they wouldn't be questioned as to why they don't have girlfriends or wives.

[ready for more?]

Furthermore, I believe this is why sexual molestation is rampant among clergy. We have a group of sexually repressed middle aged gay men living together immersed in a culture with no use for women surrounded by trusting boys (no need for altar girls, nuns are second class citizens).

This went on for half a century until society and the media became willing and able to hear and believe the stories of the abused and young gay men realized they no longer need to repress themselves and join the priesthood.

Long story short- abstinence and sexual repression is a bad idea and does not work.

Oh boy. Here I go. Getting ready to hit the Post button.

Geo--
Thank GOD, You really get it! You'll never be thrown out of any of the homes of me or my friends.....

A repressed gay closet creates as much harm to more people (church leaders included, and their innocent congregations and families) than any unjustifiable war that was ever fought in the name of the Catholic religion itself.

There are still many, many old school, repressed gay religious leaders of other faiths, like Ted Haggert , who remains so extremely in denial that they are indeed gay (by birth), they will lie to their congregation, their "wives, and their own children.

I pray for the day when all churches will just accept people exactly the way in which God made them...none of this b.s. crap of we "love the sinner, but not the sin." Do NOT force people to live lies!!!

 

[Bob]

Catholic Online - International News world's condom-promoters and allies attack the Catholic Church.The truth, more condoms would facilitate the spread of HIV/AIDS in Africa.


The day after the Pope made his comments, the heavily anti-Catholic government of Spain announced it would be sending over a million condoms to African countries.
ROME (LifeSiteNews.com) - Two days after Pope Benedict XVI warned that more condoms would facilitate the spread of HIV/AIDS in Africa, the world's condom-promoters and their political allies are leading an all-out attack on the pope and on the Catholic Church.

However, at the same time, Catholic and other conservative leaders are defending the pope, pointing out that not only is science on his side, but also that in his remarks the pope was showing a welcome deference to the pro-family culture of Africa, which is opposed to the population control agenda promoted in the continent by many Western "aid" agencies.

The day after the Pope made his comments, the heavily anti-Catholic government of Spain announced it would be sending over a million condoms to African countries. The Spanish health ministry said in a statement Wednesday, "Condoms have been demonstrated to be a necessary element in prevention policies and an efficient barrier against the virus."

The French foreign ministry called the comments a "threat to public health policies and the duty to protect human life," while the Dutch development minister said it was "extremely harmful" and that "the pope is making matters worse." Former French Prime Minister Alain Jupp?, interviewed Wednesday by France Culture, said, "This pope is becoming a real problem."

"To go say in Africa that condoms increase the danger of AIDS is, first of all an untruth and it is unacceptable for the African people and for everyone else," Jupp? said.

Aurelio Mancuso of the Italian group Arcigay said, "While across the world and especially in Africa thousands are dying of Aids, Ratzinger [Benedict] can think of nothing better to say than repeat the Vatican's position on condoms.

"We are now beyond the paradox, this view simply contributes to the spread of the disease and especially in Africa where there are not enough medical resources to treat patients."

The Telegraph also quoted Lisa Power of Britain's homosexualist activist group, the Terrence Higgins Trust, who said, "We deeply regret the continued misinformation around condoms, which remain the most effective way of preventing the spread of HIV.

"Both abstinence and condoms are valid weapons in the fight against HIV, but unfortunately abstinence has a far higher failure rate."

Rebecca Hodes, of the Treatment Action Campaign in South Africa, told the Guardian that the Pope's "opposition to condoms conveys that religious dogma is more important to him than the lives of Africans."

However, while Pope Benedict in his remarks was merely reiterating Catholic teaching, backed up by research showing that the failure rate of condoms and the promiscuity they encourage significantly contribute to the spread of AIDS, defenders of the pope have observed that the Holy Father's remarks had a further inspiration, beyond the science of the matter.