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Do you support gay marriage?

  • Yes

    Votes: 45 67.2%
  • No, for political reasons.

    Votes: 1 1.5%
  • No, for religious reasons.

    Votes: 14 20.9%
  • Don't care

    Votes: 7 10.4%

  • Total voters
    67

6thGen

Beach Fanatic
Aug 22, 2005
1,491
152
I also believe that a religion labeling someone "bad" or "sinful" for reasons other than willful actions that they have total control over is the antithesis to what Jesus taught.

Not to brush you up on old catechisms, but Christians believe that all are sinful, and it is only through God's grace that we are saved. I believe salvation is achievable for homosexuals, as we are all sinners of one stripe or another, but that's another topic for discussion. Another tangent I wanted to address that I didn't bring up.
 

Miss Critter

Beach Fanatic
Mar 8, 2008
3,397
2,125
My perfect beach
Funny that it seems that women came out later in history (at least my history) and seem to have gained quicker acceptance than men.

I could make a funny here about men's fantasies :D, but perhaps the reason is that society is used to seeing women as caretakers and not threatening.

You sound like a good guy, Ash.
 

tofu

Beach Lover
Dec 2, 2007
134
43
Well, since I?m the catalyst for the discussion, I?ll hit on it quickly. I personally oppose gay marriage based on what I said earlier. The slope has long since been slipped, but it?s a further ride down society?s definition of truth as subjective, rather than objective. That?s my main beef.
Are you of the belief that allowing gay marriage opens the door for allowing polygamy or incestuous marriage?

Further, a family consisting of a father, mother and children is a cornerstone of social security (not Social Security). We are finally seeing backlash from the black community for slipping from such. Obama delivered an excellent speech over the weekend on the subject. Bill Cosby has been railing on it for years.
And homosexuals will be homosexuals whether you ignore them or grant them marriage. Based on most people's views of homosexuality, I don't think we will be seeing tons of fathers & mothers going out and getting hitched to someone else.

There was a comedian I heard recently, I don't remember his name, but he said something to the effect of "Now I have seen a lot of things, but I have never seen a group of militant homosexuals going around breaking up families."

The family argument holds no weight, IMO. If someone chooses to be gay (even though it is largely not a choice from what I can tell), they can be--gay couples are already together whether the government chooses to recognize it or not. The fact that it is recognized by the government isn't going to have a bunch of heterosexuals "converting" and abandoning family.

However, that?s not my argument. My argument is that it should be left to the legislative branch rather than the judicial branch, and left to the states rather than the federal government. If the people want to legislate same-sex marriage, let them eat cake. The main issue I have is courts usurping the state legislature?s authority to make laws, the people?s authority to make laws via initiative and referendum, and the legislature?s authority to repeal laws passed by popular vote by creating rights out of thin air. The recent California decision overturned a 61% majority of California voters in favor of affirming that marriage is the union between one man and one woman. California same-sex couples already had the health care benefits, the hospital visitation, etc. The court took it one step further to overthrow the people?s will on cultural norms that have been established on the basis of tradition, precedent and social-science evidence.
The problem with California's same-sex unions was the matter of separate but equal, which the state supreme court found unconstitutional. The state supreme court justices have the right to change the laws if they are found unconstitutional. And the issue was that calling them same-sex unions was like saying, hey, you can have all our rights - we'll just call it something different... something less personal, very sterilized.

Often the same people who say "it's just a word" or "you have the rights already" are the same who get offended by people "redefining" the word marriage.

To me it sounds a lot like they're saying eww... get your gay away from my marriage:creepy:

If you are for majority rules all the time, you have to remember that the majority was not always for desegregation of schools or breaking down Jim Crow laws... aren't you glad that state/federal supreme courts did?
 

30ashopper

SoWal Insider
Apr 30, 2008
6,845
3,471
58
Right here!
  • I was taught that gay people will raise their children to be gay and not let the child make up their own mind
  • I was taught that gay people cannot believe in God because that would be in contradiction to the written word (Soddom and Gamorrah)
  • I was taught that most gay people have AIDS and contact with them will pass it along to you

Changes in these perceptions are going to happen over generations, not a single lifetime. Assuming you're not pounding this into your kids heads (and even then, it may not stick as they are affected by other outside influences) these views will fade over time. Its very similar to racism. Previous generations have a hard time giving up past views, but newer generations tend to drop them in favor of thier own interpretations.
 

hnooe

Beach Fanatic
Jul 21, 2007
3,022
640
Miss Critter, I won't deny that growing up, we had our suspicions about some guys, and they caught all kinds of grief for it.

Yep that happened to me a bit --hey, we are talking high school in the 70"s. Gay was not very cool then. But, it actually made me stronger as a gay man. Then, I found it interesting that the biggest "queer basher" in high school, the basketball star, came to my 30th reunion with a GUY! He apologized.

I won't deny that I still have squeemish feelings about gays raising children. Likely because of lack of exposure. Again, perhaps with time my perceptions could change.

Don't be Ash--my Lesbian sister from New York was married with 3 children before she came out at 39. She and her partner of now 21 years raised 2 boys and one girl (my sister's kids with her husband--they divorced and my sister got custody of the kids)..and guess what... they are all now good, smart, OPEN MINDED heterosexual citizens--hey... heterosexuallity just "happens," I have gotten over it!!

Funny that it seems that women came out later in history (at least my history) and seem to have gained quicker acceptance than men.

That is true! My sister was 39.
 
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6thGen

Beach Fanatic
Aug 22, 2005
1,491
152
Are you of the belief that allowing gay marriage opens the door for allowing polygamy or incestuous marriage?

Yes, but that has nothing to do with my argument. The crux of my disagreement is the continued slump towards the belief that morality is whatever one defines it as.

And homosexuals will be homosexuals whether you ignore them or grant them marriage. Based on most people's views of homosexuality, I don't think we will be seeing tons of fathers & mothers going out and getting hitched to someone else.

There was a comedian I heard recently, I don't remember his name, but he said something to the effect of "Now I have seen a lot of things, but I have never seen a group of militant homosexuals going around breaking up families."

The family argument holds no weight, IMO. If someone chooses to be gay (even though it is largely not a choice from what I can tell), they can be--gay couples are already together whether the government chooses to recognize it or not. The fact that it is recognized by the government isn't going to have a bunch of heterosexuals "converting" and abandoning family.

Did I say any of that or imply differently? Are you just highlighting portions of what I wrote without bothering to read it?

The problem with California's same-sex unions was the matter of separate but equal, which the state supreme court found unconstitutional. The state supreme court justices have the right to change the laws if they are found unconstitutional. And the issue was that calling them same-sex unions was like saying, hey, you can have all our rights - we'll just call it something different... something less personal, very sterilized.

Often the same people who say "it's just a word" or "you have the rights already" are the same who get offended by people "redefining" the word marriage.

To me it sounds a lot like they're saying eww... get your gay away from my marriage:creepy:

If you are for majority rules all the time, you have to remember that the majority was not always for desegregation of schools or breaking down Jim Crow laws... aren't you glad that state/federal supreme courts did?

Where in California?s constitution does it address the right to marry? Or same-sex marriages in general? Or the state?s right to direct the nature of language?
 

elgordoboy

Beach Fanatic
Feb 9, 2007
2,507
888
I no longer stay in Dune Allen
Yes, but that has nothing to do with my argument. The crux of my disagreement is the continued slump towards the belief that morality is whatever one defines it as.



Did I say any of that or imply differently? Are you just highlighting portions of what I wrote without bothering to read it?



Where in California’s constitution does it address the right to marry? Or same-sex marriages in general? Or the state’s right to direct the nature of language?
I'd like to stay and discuss this with you, although it's a fruitlless discussion. You appear to disdain moral relativism and favor moral absolutism. I doubt you will change any minds nor will anyone argue you off of your position, only experience can do that.
 

scooterbug44

SoWal Expert
May 8, 2007
16,706
3,339
Sowal
I could make a funny here about men's fantasies :D, but perhaps the reason is that society is used to seeing women as caretakers and not threatening.

You sound like a good guy, Ash.

I think that along w/ the fantasy angle, there are a lot of homophobic guys who think they are much more attractive to gay men then they actually are! :D
 
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