Led away in Handcuffs

Andy A. thanks for a voice of reason...

BMBV,
The SELLERS are the one who need to be disclosing material facts for the sale of their property, in the Real Property Disclosure Statements.

You can bet that I will be pointing out the craziness of the two thoughts of the beach ownership to anyone and everyone I can, including those who are buying property, and I might even encourage them to peacefully sit on the beach and enjoy a sunset, if they are willing to make a stand and possibly be arrested and taken to court, or face a lawsuit for damages by the property owner.

SJ, I understand your defensive position in regards to what I and 1st in '59 have thrown out at you, Bobby and every other real estate agent / broker out there.

Yes, the SELLERS should diclose this AS WELL (assuming they really knew). Sellers can't play "dumb" EITHER.

SJ, I have every confidence that if this situation comes up in your course of business, that you will do the right thing. Understand that.

In answer to your question BlueMtBeach Vagrant, I have owned #8 at Sea Bluff since 1991. Our board, has never taken a direct position on use of our beach but NOBODY has been asked EVER to move. We do frown on the use of our walkover to access the beach, however, because of liabilty and other issues. The beach at the bottom of the bluff should be for EVERYONE as long as they are courteous and respectful. It is my opion, since I served to protect everyone's freedoms and rights, that the beach should be available to all. You can't build on it, you can't farm it and you can't do anything but sit on it and play on it. All should be able to do that.

Fair enough.

Let me ask you this: what is the nearest public access (or private access that serves large areas of inland property) to your area?

Saturday I walked down the street, crossed 30A, and scooterbugged down the newly constructed (replacing the one taken out by Arlene) TDC walkway and stairs to get to the beach.

I left my flip flops at the stairs, walked less than a hundred yards to avoid a group of beachgoers in their "camp", frowned at an empty tent, and spread my towel on dry sand. Noone bothered me or asked me to move!

I attribute this to 3 major things: a relaxed neighborhood attitude, a post holiday weekend, and low density!

Quit maxing out the density and building condo blocks and there will be plenty of room on the beach for everyone!

If you build it they will come..............and crowd "your" beach!

Instead of arresting or harassing vacationers, use your energy to fight developers and variances!

The video sucks, don't watch it dude

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEA7IwiJf98"]YouTube - Fighting to keep Florida beaches Public[/ame]

If you don't want to watch it just read it.
It took 3 hours to make because many folks called asking to explain the condition in these pathetic situations.
If you have the means to have a group discussion and video tape it, and improve and educate the public, please do so. Put it on the web so I can have a shot at it too.

Like they say, everyone has an opinion.

Until then, its all I can do and as the blogger said, it sucks, so don't watch it.......


VIDEO DIALOG:
This is an attempt to explain the proper way how many legal issues regarding beach access at our public beaches should be resolved

BUYER: I am looking for a house on the beach in Florida
Can you help me find one?

AGENT: Sure Mr. Buyer, I have one in Destin Florida, right on the beach with your property deeded into the Gulf of Mexico.
In fact it has a private beach just for you.
Sign here!

After a few months of enjoying his new home in Florida, sitting on his own private beach, Mr. Buyer noticed that tourist were trespassing on his property.
It appears that they were not aware that this was his beach and it really bothered him no end!

BUYER: Mr. Tourist. What do you think you're doing on my beach? This is my beach mister! Now get off!
Do you realize that you are trespassing on private property? This is my private beach!
Now get off or I'll call the cops!

TOURIST: You must be crazy!
Florida does not have private beaches, they're all public beaches and that's why we come here on vacation.
Call the cops, I'm staying right here and you can sue me if you like!

BUYER: Officer, please come quickly
Men women and children are trespassing on my private beach right behind my house. What is worse is that they're enjoying the beach like they've done so for over 20 years, before I even got here.
It's so unfair. Could you please ask them to leave?

OFFICER: Mr. Buyer, I'm sorry, but I cannot come out to your house and ask these tourists, who are enjoying the public beach like they've done so for over 20 years, to leave.
That wouldn't be Florida.
There is a possibility that customary use can be proven and they most likely have to every right to be on the beach behind your house.
I cannot act as judge, jury and executioner and act on your behalf.
That is a violation of the Florida constitution.
I would suggest you contact your attorney and don't bother the tourists again.

BUYER: Mr. Tourist. I'm really mad because the police won't kick you off my beach, so I'm going to sue you and prove that you're not allowed on my land ever again.

Tourist: I hope you've got deep pockets

BUYER: Florida Judge listen up. I bought this land thinking that I own all of it, the wet sand and the dry sand, because here it is in my deed and the real estate agent told me so and I believed him
Am I wrong in thinking that I don't own all this land? What happened to my property rights? This is so not American

JUDGE: Mr. Buyer. When you bought your house on the beach, you should have done your due diligence, because we have proven in this court that this beach has been used continuously for over 20 years in a manner consistent to how Mr. Tourist was using the beach.

We are sorry to tell you but the dry sand behind your house has been used continuously and uninterrupted for a period exceeding 20 years and therefore a PRESCRIPTIVE EASEMENT exists.

This easement gives Mr. Tourist the right to use, not only the wet area of the public beach, but the dry area too.

TOURIST: Thank you Judge. For a moment I thought we would have to travel to Mexico to enjoy public beaches
I would suggest Mr. Grumpy Buyer move, where your home does not border on public property because you need privacy and a beach is for all people to gather and enjoy.

Don't you just love our constitution

Thank you Mr. Buyer for paying my Legal fees. Hugs and kisses.
Florida Public beaches are for everyone

I hope you enjoyed this presentation

**************************************** **

The closest public accesses usable are Blue Mt Beach and the one between the Inn at Blue Mt. and the Retreat.

Re: The video sucks, don't watch it dude

I bought this land thinking that I own all of it, the wet sand and the dry sand, because here it is in my deed and the real estate agent told me so and I believed him

JUDGE: Mr. Buyer. When you bought your house on the beach, you should have done your due diligence

**

This sums it up for me! I often laugh out loud at some of the claims real estate agents and sellers make about properties!

Re: The video sucks, don't watch it dude

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEA7IwiJf98

If you don't want to watch it just read it.
It took 3 hours to make because many folks called asking to explain the condition in these pathetic situations.
If you have the means to have a group discussion and video tape it, and improve and educate the public, please do so. Put it on the web so I can have a shot at it too.

Like they say, everyone has an opinion.

Until then, its all I can do and as the blogger said, it sucks, so don't watch it.......


VIDEO DIALOG:
This is an attempt to explain the proper way how many legal issues regarding beach access at our public beaches should be resolved

BUYER: I am looking for a house on the beach in Florida
Can you help me find one?

AGENT: Sure Mr. Buyer, I have one in Destin Florida, right on the beach with your property deeded into the Gulf of Mexico.
In fact it has a private beach just for you.
Sign here!

After a few months of enjoying his new home in Florida, sitting on his own private beach, Mr. Buyer noticed that tourist were trespassing on his property.
It appears that they were not aware that this was his beach and it really bothered him no end!

BUYER: Mr. Tourist. What do you think you're doing on my beach? This is my beach mister! Now get off!
Do you realize that you are trespassing on private property? This is my private beach!
Now get off or I'll call the cops!

TOURIST: You must be crazy!
Florida does not have private beaches, they're all public beaches and that's why we come here on vacation.
Call the cops, I'm staying right here and you can sue me if you like!

BUYER: Officer, please come quickly
Men women and children are trespassing on my private beach right behind my house. What is worse is that they're enjoying the beach like they've done so for over 20 years, before I even got here.
It's so unfair. Could you please ask them to leave?

OFFICER: Mr. Buyer, I'm sorry, but I cannot come out to your house and ask these tourists, who are enjoying the public beach like they've done so for over 20 years, to leave.
That wouldn't be Florida.
There is a possibility that customary use can be proven and they most likely have to every right to be on the beach behind your house.
I cannot act as judge, jury and executioner and act on your behalf.
That is a violation of the Florida constitution.
I would suggest you contact your attorney and don't bother the tourists again.

BUYER: Mr. Tourist. I'm really mad because the police won't kick you off my beach, so I'm going to sue you and prove that you're not allowed on my land ever again.

Tourist: I hope you've got deep pockets

BUYER: Florida Judge listen up. I bought this land thinking that I own all of it, the wet sand and the dry sand, because here it is in my deed and the real estate agent told me so and I believed him
Am I wrong in thinking that I don't own all this land? What happened to my property rights? This is so not American

JUDGE: Mr. Buyer. When you bought your house on the beach, you should have done your due diligence, because we have proven in this court that this beach has been used continuously for over 20 years in a manner consistent to how Mr. Tourist was using the beach.

We are sorry to tell you but the dry sand behind your house has been used continuously and uninterrupted for a period exceeding 20 years and therefore a PRESCRIPTIVE EASEMENT exists.

This easement gives Mr. Tourist the right to use, not only the wet area of the public beach, but the dry area too.

TOURIST: Thank you Judge. For a moment I thought we would have to travel to Mexico to enjoy public beaches
I would suggest Mr. Grumpy Buyer move, where your home does not border on public property because you need privacy and a beach is for all people to gather and enjoy.

Don't you just love our constitution

Thank you Mr. Buyer for paying my Legal fees. Hugs and kisses.
Florida Public beaches are for everyone

I hope you enjoyed this presentation

**************************************** **

I agree with BMBV on this one. Question, why did you find the need to disguise your voice?????

This happened to me today around 5 pm on the beach in Blue
Moutain. I am an owner on Redfish Circle. I walked to the beach access
between the Inn and the Retreat and set up a chair and a towel on the
Retreat side of things. All was fine for about an hour, at which time
I was approached by a security guard and his sidekick. I was asked to move and I did. He wanted to call the Sheriff because of all the questions I was asking. He did, and I called the manager of the Blue Mountain Beach Club.
Ultimately, we had a beach-side fiesta consisting of me, two guards, two Sheriff's Office guys, and another Redfish homeowner. Where were all you Sowallers to bring me a maragarita? Sheesh!

I learned a lot today that I wanted to 'share' with the other users of this board. I believe that those of us who own on Redfish and other members
of the Beach Club/BMB Masters Association have the right to use that
access and the beach there. I also believe that the public has the right to use that beach. The Beach Club Manager had documents with him to support those facts, none of which the guards or law were keen to inspect. I should point out that there were no private property signs on the Retreat side of things, only on the Inn's side. The Inn's signs were also not lined up perpendicularly to the beach, but kind of staggered.

The Sheriff folks are sick of this guy calling all the time. They said they can always tell when he's on duty. They are enforcing the MHW line until this issue can be elevated above them. They recommended the Manager call Charlie Crist's office, or at least Cindy Meadows' office. The Gonzalez case may solve all this, but it also may have to be decided by the state Supreme Court. I promise you, if you bring up what I can only remember as the "Tony Roma" Dayton Beach case, it will be disregarded beachside. They don't care, they just want to do their jobs and this is currently their least favorite task. They are sticking to the assertion that we only have ingress/egress rights to the MHW line, where we can then plant ourselves and our stuff.

I could name the names of those who were part of my group this afternoon, but I don't think it's necessary. What is pertinent is that others know what can happen on a lovely, almost barren beach in Walton County to folks just sitting in a chair with an adult beverage reading People magazine. I wanted to warn people about this on a more personal level. I was civil, just asked a lot of questions, as any homeowner would. The one security guard in particular I had a problem with (older male, for lack of a better description, his sidekick looked barely 20) was very argumentative and harrassing. I had heard about him from my family who visited over the week of July Fourth. True to form, he seems to target singles on the beach, evidently with the assumption that they won't challenge his rights. He verbally and physically threatened my brother-in-law on Saturday, July 7th. I did not witness it, but I believe my in-law and also believe his and my sis' first-hand accounts of this rent-a-cop physically removing people's belongings from the beach. I questioned him about this, and he admitted that he has relocated 'abondoned' property. These things (chairs, bags, towels) were left unattended because their owners were swimming in the Gulf of Mexico.

Additionally, he moves these items to the western side of the public beach access. This is considered by some to be owned by the Retreat. It seems that when the Inn rebuilt the public beach access, they mistakenly built it on Retreat land, or so it seems. So this guard moves people's stuff from Retreat/Inn land to Retreat land, which he admits.

I can't afford to get arrested. I was super-civil and did all I could to (successfully) stall the guard until the Club Manager arrived and we all chatted with the Sherriff Sargeant and his coworker. I can't be the next Senora Gonzalez and keep my job. I just know in my heart of hearts that this isn't right and I've seen plenty of evidence to suport that belief. I would be very interested to hear what you others think and what you would have done. I'll be down here until early Wednesday and will be out of the beach (by the water, natch) each day. I am upset about this and in particulary how that one guard has harrassed my family. He tried to get me but must not have noticed my spine, my brain, and my cell phone!

Thanks for reading this long rant, I feel a bit better already. I should also mention that nurse sharks (some small, one bigger) were spotted on the beach in BMB today. There was at least one bull shark sighted near Fort
Panic. According to one of the Sheriff dudes, he saw it leap from the water with a 100 lb tarpon it its mouth! I will be on the lookout tomorrow, for sure.

In the heat of everyone's discussion, somehow it seems like this post got over looked. When I read it, one thing greatly concerned me. The poster said the Club Manager arrived with paperwork proving they could use the walkover and the beach, neighter the Sheriff's Deputy or the Security Guard would even look at them.

The second thing that bother's me is the security guard picking up people's personal belongings and moving them. Seems to me he should wait until the people come back and approach them. Obviously they don't know they have set up on private property.

What do you guys think?

In the heat of everyone's discussion, somehow it seems like this post got over looked. When I read it, one thing greatly concerned me. The poster said the Club Manager arrived with paperwork proving they could use the walkover and the beach, neighter the Sheriff's Deputy or the Security Guard would even look at them.

The second thing that bother's me is the security guard picking up people's personal belongings and moving them. Seems to me he should wait until the people come back and approach them. Obviously they don't know they have set up on private property.

What do you guys think?

In the Sheriff's Office defense, it is not their duty to interpret the laws, and looking at the documents might be considered as interpreting the ownership of the property. The security guard isn't paid for legal services either, and they are paid by the property owner(s), so they couldn't care less, unless you want to write their paychecks.

Regarding moving personal property, I hope the security guard who is moving the stuff, doesn't end up having to replace expensive items which he destroys, such as a Blackberry. That could bet pricey. Sounds like that guy needs a good ole spanking from his granny.

In the Sheriff's Office defense, it is not their duty to interpret the laws, and looking at the documents might be considered as interpreting the ownership of the property. The security guard isn't paid for legal services either, and they are paid by the property owner(s), so they couldn't care less, unless you want to write their paychecks.

Regarding moving personal property, I hope the security guard who is moving the stuff, doesn't end up having to replace expensive items which he destroys, such as a Blackberry. That could bet pricey. Sounds like that guy needs a good ole spanking from his granny.

I see your point. Hummm. Hopefully Dutchess will make some phone calls, etc. to the right people.

Also, I hope the security guard is covered in case things come up missing. I think he has taken his job over the line.

I don't recall seeing any signs posted on your street, noting that murder is illegal, but again, I don't think that signs are required to be posted to state all of the laws.

I'm not absolutely sure, but I cannot prove a negative.

I believe you're correct that there are NO parking signs on Blue Mountain Road (at least based on a pic I am looking at as I am not down there now).

Then it would be assumed by the public that parking is legal on the side of the road if the right of way is wide enough which it usually is in which case there is more parking available at BMB access than you think thus alleviating the parking shortage that you validly bring up.

OR

Just because "no parking" signs don't exist, that there may still be some ordinance that basically states parking is not allowed on the side of the road (as you possibly suggest).

THEN

If it's the latter, could not the same "logic" be applied to people on the beach? If there are no signs on the beach, then the public assumes the beach is public and uses it in that manner.

BUT

Since there are deeds recorded at the county that state particular gulf front lots own to the MHW line and everyone is now an expert on "trespassing", shouldn't the public have been aware that IF and WHEN they walked on private property, that they were trespassing? Was this the "right" thing to do?

My point is we can't conveniently hide behind not knowing the "rules". The public is (was) not generally aware that there are private beaches.
Should this "ignorance" be parlayed into private property owners losing part of their property? I don't think this is right, personally. Tona-Roma was a situation where purely COMMERCIAL interests in Daytona Beach were pitted against the PUBLIC.

Sometimes I wonder why Walmart isn't sued (as an example) for the same thing. The general public uses their parking lot all day and all night long, right? People are "allowed" to even sleep in their campers on the parking lot. Let's go get'um boys!!!

People on this message board talk about doing the right thing and all. To simply "occasionally" use someone's property with or without their knowledge, to me, is not grounds for one to lose their private property unless you're a socialist.;-)

The "right thing" was not to trespass on your neighbor's private property in the first place.

The "right thing" is not to take away your neighbor's property because you did.

Yes, in SOME areas, I'm confident there are situations where the public has used the beach for over 20 years. Assuming so, they could prevail. But I'm sure there are MANY MORE areas where there was just an "occasional public use" that would NOT qualify that beach as public.

;-) Yeah Yippie, grayt points? What could be their incentive to flat out ignore the legal proof.....hmmmm

Dang Duchess, that really stinks like giant rotten eggs
Way to stick to your guns without gettin' arrested!
How does the sherrif have time for this nonsense ? Is this our taxpayer dollars at work? Gas is expensive, and more so is their time.The Retreat should have to pay for all their frivilous phone calls. What a giant crock o'crap.
...as the youtube video points out objectively.

Thanks, Graham. Grayt work.

Why the computer voice? If you heard my voice you'd know why. Also it was late so the wife & kids were sleeping at 12am and I wasn't going to wake them to start role-playing. Okay you're the police man, no I want to be the judge. Nuff said, lets hope this blog moves on

Your local government has a duty to the tourist' s public health, safety and welfare, seeing they are only doing what is customary on these beaches.

Clearly, the home owners are the aggressors and local government knows about it, yet they continue to advertise how wonderful your area is and that tourists world wide should flock to your shores, yet no where in the county's websites (that I've seen) prepares tourists to include a tape measure while visiting one of these beaches. No mention is made of the obvious hostility on these beaches.

It?s a tourist trap, its deception, an irresponsible act that the local government and those standing by doing absolutely nothing, those thriving off the tourists industry, should be ashamed of and held accountable.

Why the computer voice? If you heard my voice you'd know why. Also it was late so the wife & kids were sleeping at 12am and I wasn't going to wake them to start role-playing. Okay you're the police man, no I want to be the judge. Nuff said, lets hope this blog moves on

Your local government has a duty to the tourist' s public health, safety and welfare, seeing they are only doing what is customary on these beaches.

Clearly, the home owners are the aggressors and local government knows about it, yet they continue to advertise how wonderful your area is and that tourists world wide should flock to your shores, yet no where in the county's websites (that I've seen) prepares tourists to include a tape measure while visiting one of these beaches. No mention is made of the obvious hostility on these beaches.

It?s a tourist trap, its deception, an irresponsible act that the local government and those standing by doing absolutely nothing, those thriving off the tourists industry, should be ashamed of and held accountable.

Graham, I am curious. Do you live here? I am trying to grasp the your relationship with the area. Do you vacation here? Or own property here? Another question, what was the purpose in starting your website? Just curious.

In the heat of everyone's discussion, somehow it seems like this post got over looked. When I read it, one thing greatly concerned me. The poster said the Club Manager arrived with paperwork proving they could use the walkover and the beach, neighter the Sheriff's Deputy or the Security Guard would even look at them.

The second thing that bother's me is the security guard picking up people's personal belongings and moving them. Seems to me he should wait until the people come back and approach them. Obviously they don't know they have set up on private property.

What do you guys think?

Someone stated that the Retreat and the Inn at BMB has reported trespassing so many times, that I'm sure it's been studied and analyzed beforehand by the Sheriff's department. So I'm sure the deputies are in no mood to "revisit" the legalities over and over again each time they are called out there and challenged by the "trespasser". They are doing the right thing with the laws as they are now.

I am a potential tourist in your area, an American, never been to your area, but love Florida and America's beaches.

People go to a beach to relax, not to fight.

Upland property owners are numerous, but represent a very small percentage of the population of Florida, let alone the country.

I care primarily about the public, creating dialog and showing news releases about the issues relating to beach access.

Your area is no different than the issues here in Naples Florida, Hawaii, or in NJ. You're still America and we're still Americans debating issues regarding quality of life and rights. How great is that!

Bobby, PLEASE... after reading the last two posts from your "buddy", you REALLY need to find another spokesman. I really AM thinking about you.

Maybe the better choice of words to describe the current situation is privately-owned beaches and publically-owned beaches.

This seems more accurate to me since it directly addresses ownership, but leaves the accessibility question to the courts (or whomever).

Someone stated that the Retreat and the Inn at BMB has reported trespassing so many times, that I'm sure it's been studied and analyzed beforehand by the Sheriff's department. So I'm sure the deputies are in no mood to "revisit" the legalities over and over again each time they are called out there and challenged by the "trespasser". They are doing the right thing with the laws as they are now.

FROM AGO 2002 - SEE ON WWW.PUBLICSHORE.COM

"This office rejected the proposal to authorize local law enforcement officers to be designated as the agents of private persons."

"...the Florida Constitution prohibits the use of public funds for a private purpose.[21] The pre-authorization of on-duty law enforcement officers to act as agents of private landowners in warning individuals to leave private property appeared to this office to serve primarily a private, not public, purpose."

Oh, that last post was for the blogger that thinks everything is just peachy and we should continue to arrest people on the beach.

Let me know your thoughts on the AGO. Most would think the opinion of this office has some minor merit. I am no expert, but your'e welcome to hire your handy dandy land attorney, at a small fee

Local police aren't likely to start fighting with the land owners along the coast. Who elects the sheriff?

Keep arresting and we'll keep tellin
Keep harassing and we'll keep yellin

I am a potential tourist in your area, an American, never been to your area, but love Florida and America's beaches.

People go to a beach to relax, not to fight.

Upland property owners are numerous, but represent a very small percentage of the population of Florida, let alone the country.

I care primarily about the public, creating dialog and showing news releases about the issues relating to beach access.

Your area is no different than the issues here in Naples Florida, Hawaii, or in NJ. You're still America and we're still Americans debating issues regarding quality of life and rights. How great is that!

So you are a potential tourist. You have never been here. Hummm.

Upland property owners are numerous, but represent a very small percentage of the population of Florida, let alone the country.

I'm not sure what you mean by this, but what we refer to as upland property owners is all property that isn't Gulf Front and I assure you, it is a MUCH greater percentage than Gulf Front owners.

So you are a potential tourist. You have never been here. Hummm.

You're right, it YOUR problem, not mine - Right, I've got better things to do, who gives a damn what happens in the pan handle

I'm not sure what you mean by this, but what we refer to as upland property owners is all property that isn't Gulf Front and I assure you, it is a MUCH greater percentage than Gulf Front owners.

I meant as the upland owner, refering to the owners along the coastline, not beyond the coastline

Bobby, PLEASE... after reading the last two posts from your "buddy", you REALLY need to find another spokesman. I really AM thinking about you.

I know you are and that is very thougthtful of you. I am sure of one thing BMBV. Graham is more versed in this then you and I. Your counter part pointed fingers at agents. How original is that. Graham has at least studied the issue in depth. His approach is from concern of public rights and yours is from concern of personal gain. I have allot to lose here as far as ever getting a gulf front listing ever goes but do not really care. What is right is right and you have a personal agenda as you have stated.