Led away in Handcuffs

BeachSiO2...the above says it all.

Cop-out. Why did you do the map then? It would have made just as much sense to paint those areas as green due to the historical precedence set by Cube McGee with Seagrove. Who in the eastern segment asked you to do it because I do not believe you did that on your own? you are too much a stickler for the facts to go out on that limb without a push...

OK, everything west of the 83 is private except for the RFV section which is public all the way to the Inn at BMB. Still lots of green area trying to get to the access adjacent to the Retreat. Perhaps that's my real point.

OK, everything west of the 83 is private except for the RFV section which is public all the way to the Inn at BMB. Still lots of green area trying to get to the access adjacent to the Retreat. Perhaps that's my real point.

Not so fast.. You are too much of a stickler for the facts which is why I apologized for being wrong on one lot, and you have apologized to me in the past. You wouldn't have made a map with your name on it if you didn't have good reason for the eastern section to be privately owned so what is it...

By the way, this is where I go to the beach so I am not being a pain for no reason.

... you are too much a stickler for the facts to go out on that limb without a push...

Our last 2 posts crossed each other, really! Look at the times.

Looks like I read your mind and see where you are coming from. It was just an issue that came up in the past. I may be wrong on this one as I can't prove it, as SJ indicates.

Again, the real point is that there are real problem areas that have these private / public beach accesses to nowhere (that CAN be proven) apparently in the case at the Retreat.

My graphic may very well be incorrect. If so, I apologize in advance.

Our last 2 posts crossed each other, really! Look at the times.

Looks like I read your mind and see where you are coming from. It was just an issue that came up in the past. I may be wrong on this one as I can't prove it, as SJ indicates.

Again, the real point is that there are real problem areas that have these private / public beach accesses to nowhere (that CAN be proven) apparently in the case at the Retreat.

My graphic may very well be incorrect. If so, I apologize in advance.

Fair enough and yes, there are problem areas, I just didn't want to go to jail where I go to the beach

By the way, when this is resolved I am counting on you to post the map that accurately represents the BMB beach since you posted the first one. BTW, I realize that it may be the same one, but as a stand-up guy I would expect you to shoulder the glory or the blame and I will be right behind you saying you were right....or wrong

Fair enough and yes, there are problem areas, I just didn't want to go to jail where I go to the beach

By the way, when this is resolved I am counting on you to post the map that accurately represents the BMB beach since you posted the first one. BTW, I realize that it may be the same one, but as a stand-up guy I would expect you to shoulder the glory or the blame and I will be right behind you saying you were right....or wrong

ABSOLUTELY! And when this is all resolved, I'll also buy you a beer for enlightening me on the MHW line thingy.

If I'm wrong and shown the error of my ways, I'll admit it...never too proud for that.

ABSOLUTELY! And when this is all resolved, I'll also buy you a beer for enlightening me on the MHW line thingy.

If I'm wrong and shown the error of my ways, I'll admit it...never too proud for that.

Me either, one thing though. It should be at least two beers a piece, and I'll by the second one.

Me either, one thing though. It should be at least two beers a piece, and I'll by the second one.

Hey, can you have beer in glass bottles on private beaches?

JUST KIDDING!!!!!!

Hey, can you have beer in glass bottles on private beaches?

JUST KIDDING!!!!!!

No, but more importantly, I am planning on drinking it on YOUR beach

Again, I'm just trying to post here to submit a
realtime report on what's going on down here at the beach.

BMB Vagrant has posted some very kind remarks about me. I don't
know what to say, except thank you. I believe I met you last
fall at a public hearing in a WaterColor conference room about the
RFV lot beach access. Little did I know then how relevant that
hearing was to what is going on now,

Sho', nuf, I was on the beach today, from about 10am to 3pm.
When I say 'the beach', I mean the area at the Blue Mountain
Beach Access between the Inn and the Retreat. I was not
directly approached about property lines but I sure spoke up when I
saw others contacted by the security guard there this morning/
afternoon.

Notes from the front: This woman doesn't tell you she's calling
the cops, she just does it. No one was cited, but the SW Police
did show up and we had a nice chat. Rent-a-cops pretty much
disappear after the Sheriff people arrive, which is probably a good
thing. Again, no 'No Trespassing' signs in evidence, this person
was just enforcing what she considered Florida law. The Sheriff's
agent backed her up about the whole MHW line and wet/dry sand
issue.

Many people (tourists, visitors, random Floridians) joined the fiesta
when I was speaking to the SW Sheriff dude on his ATV. By then the
security guard had conveniently left the area. We had a very mature,
civil discussion about the property rights issues that are so important
to some of us in South Walton County.

In short, it is a public beach access between the Inn and the Retreat.
For all to use, ingress/egress, and set up stuff as we'd like, the law
enforcement on the beach today admitted as much, but he also said
that it's a very grey area and he wanted no part of the whole
enchilada.

The bigger problem is this: like I wrote earlier, several people walked
up to me on the beach when they saw the conflagration going down.
To a person, each was a long-time visitor to South Walton county
who couldn't believe this was happening. Some had heard of this
recent issue, but hadn't seen it in person. So me in my Old Navy
tankini educated many people on the sands of BMB today!

This is wrong. Like I wrote earlier, I wasn't approached today but another
group adjacent to me was. We were situated at the same distance from
the water, supposed Retreat/Inn property lines, etc. I can't emphasize enough how important it is not to lose one's cool when first approached/engaged. Just keep talking! These security guards seem
suprised by the English language, particulary that which may involve
Latin phrases like 'quid pro quo'. Like I said, keep talking and asserting
your rights as a visitor/homeowner until someone else shows up.
You are doing nothing illegal by sitting on the beach reading Vanity Fair and
drinking a Bud Light.

Many, many people I spoke to on the beach not only think this is an
absolute farce, but also said they would rethink their decision to vacation
in Walton county if this wasn't resolved by next summmer. I know this to be true because I asked.

I'm leaving early tomorrow (Wed) so someone else will have to monitor this for now. I'll be back next month, don't fret. More reports to follow....

Wow! This thread is great! Sorry I have been away. I know BMBV missed me. My quote in the Walton Sun comes from a comment a reporter asked me... This so called "private" beach issue concerns me far more then my RE business. My last post before I got busy at work was, does anyone know of a private beach lawsuit where the HO won the case?

OK, everything west of the 83 is private except for the RFV section which is public all the way to the Inn at BMB.

Am I reading your statement correctly? Are you saying that the RFV section all the way to the Inn at BMB is public?

Our last 2 posts crossed each other, really! Look at the times.

Looks like I read your mind and see where you are coming from. It was just an issue that came up in the past. I may be wrong on this one as I can't prove it, as SJ indicates.

Again, the real point is that there are real problem areas that have these private / public beach accesses to nowhere (that CAN be proven) apparently in the case at the Retreat.

My graphic may very well be incorrect. If so, I apologize in advance.

I'm no lawyer, but I think intent plays a major roll in interpreting cases like the public accesses leading to "nowhere." As you asked in a previous post, why would the County require a public access to nowhere? Need to look at the intent.

Wow! This thread is great! Sorry I have been away. I know BMBV missed me. My quote in the Walton Sun comes from a comment a reporter asked me... This so called "private" beach issue concerns me far more then my RE business. My last post before I got busy at work was, does anyone know of a private beach lawsuit where the HO won the case?

No, not really.

Then why did you even mention your real estate business to the Walton Sun? Once more:

“Without beach access and open beaches I will not have a real estate business. I have used all these beaches for years and will continue to do so. The state constitution says all beaches below the mean high-water line, or the wet sand, are public.”
– Bobby Johnson,
Santa Rosa Beach

Yet your quote in the paper did not include what you just said just now. That is "This so called "private" beach issue concerns me far more then my RE business." I guess you just remembered the real estate business part when the reporter asked. Perhaps you were misquoted.

Bobby, in [ame="http://www.sowal.com/bb/showpost.php?p=265935&postcount=660"]post #660[/ame], you asked me "Are you concerned about your property values?"...among other things.

Interesting why you think I should not be concerned with property values (there is no other logical reason for you asking). Remember a home, for many, is their single biggest investment. But being in real estate, you know that already. You imply that I shouldn't worry about my "home" devaluing if the private beach becomes public, that I should just give the land away?

Now you DANCE all around the subject when the tables are turned.

I don't remember asking you "Are you concerned about your real estate business?". Yet that is EXACTLY what you were quoted saying.

Are you a bad guy for caring about your business? Hell no.

Are you a little hypocritical?:scratch:

I'm no lawyer, but I think intent plays a major roll in interpreting cases like the public accesses leading to "nowhere." As you asked in a previous post, why would the County require a public access to nowhere? Need to look at the intent.

Remember Sun Seekers?

YIPPIE

'If the ECL washes away, too, then the wet sand, dry sand rule would apply. Then, if the beach is to be renourished again, a new ECL line would have to be established."

As far as I know, unless something has changed, an ECL line is established once, permanently. It will never be created at a different location on that beach again. Once again, the land above the the MLWH can still be deeded to the upland owner, the ECL doesn't change the deed, but the land between the ECL line & the MHWL is now under public control, similar to an easement, which is similar control to the wet sand area

ECL's started in the 70's I think. As beaches get rebuilt nationally, the DEP establishes ECL lines

TDC funds generally pay for renourishment, only if public access is available, but sometime commissioners will spend TDC funds on beaches only residents can access, which is a miss-appropriation of public funds, but the ultimate decider on access is the commissioners.

Last I knew there were state fund available for renourishment, but public access is a major factor

Here on Hideway Beach, vertually no public access, the residents on the beach paid for their own sand. An ECL line was still established and they still ask for people to get off 'their beach'

Call DEP's Paden Woodruff 850-488-7708 on ECL and other beach questions. He's a wealth of information

All the best

Well I guess you know more than the mayor and city manager, even though they are very involved in the project.

I thought you told us all goodbye.

Just seems easier to me?





All beaches in the State of Oregon are designated public recreation areas, and are jointly managed by both the State of Oregon and the local municipalities whose boundaries encompass portions of the beach. The foresight of the State in declaring beaches public recreation areas ensures that our beautiful beaches are free for everyone to enjoy and use, visitors and residents alike. It also means that we all have a responsibility to protect and care for our beaches as common stewards. Visit the State Department of Land Conservation's Coastal Management Plan for more information on how the State is helping to protect and manage our coastal beaches

BMBV,
I was asked if I was concerned how this "private beach" access would effect my RE Business. My comment was I would not have a RE business if the beaches were private. I also do not think you should give the land away. You do not own it! You can not give something away you do not own. ;-) See quote at bottom of the page.

I recieved this from Surfrider today via email. I am posting this as a direct cut and paste from The local Panhandle Surfrider Chapter. The reason I disclose this is for BMBV. I do not agree with every aspect of the Surfrider Foundation. They are into the 20' above the MHTL. I think it should be to the vegetation line.

[SIZE=+0]Customary use of the Beach[/SIZE]

The TDC collect the bed taxes and suggests to the commissioners its uses.

The commissioners approve of TDC funds both in the county & city

Ask the budget dept in the county for a budget report for the TDC over the past years (public records request) & post here

Look online for the FL Stat indicating the uses of TDC funds

Complain if there haven't been used for tourist related projects

Typical uses: Parking lots & renouriehment of public beaches where access isn't a problem (enough parking for a stretch of beach)

PS. I noted several businesses in that are advertising hundreds of feet of 'private beaches'. Check the DBPR's responce to that.

Gov Christ is not likely to look favourably on the privitization of Florida's beaches. His office has been notified of the issues in your area. At days end all local governments need to work in harmony with the rest of the state or suffer in the long run. Don't expect DEP to be forth coming to help either.

BMBV,
I was asked if I was concerned how this "private beach" access would effect my RE Business. My comment was I would not have a RE business if the beaches were private. I also do not think you should give the land away. You do not own it! You can not give something away you do not own. ;-) See quote at bottom of the page.

IMO the fastest way to devalue property around here is to continue this private beach insanity.

The one thing this area has going for it is the beautiful beach--if people are being chased off and arrested for enjoying the main attraction, then tourism will decline, and when that happens, no one will want to be here, and when that is the case, the value of the "private" property will plummet.

It is the desire of people to be here to enjoy the beach that sets the property values...

IMO the fastest way to devalue property around here is to continue this private beach insanity.

The one thing this area has going for it is the beautiful beach--if people are being chased off and arrested for enjoying the main attraction, then tourism will decline, and when that happens, no one will want to be here, and when that is the case, the value of the "private" property will plummet.

It is the desire of people to be here to enjoy the beach that sets the property values...

I couldn't have said it better!

Andy, just click the Quote button from within the post that you want to "reply" to.

I really do understand your opinion and you have a full right to it. I'm not trying to poke holes it but rather illuminate the differences with your particular gulf front property location vs. others. Things certainly are not "equal" in this regard.

You're correct I don't live or stare at the beach all day long, neither do the people at the Retreat, neither do the people at the Inn at BMB, etc. But this should not enter in to the discussion here, in my opinion. I know you will disagree and that's OK. Regardless of my opinion on this and your opinion on this, the majority of gulf front owners will fight for their property rights. Trying to find solutions is what we should be debating.

Since you mentioned Redfish Village, if you feel like one should allow others to use their private property when its not being used, why didn't Redfish Village simply open up their private access to the public? They deeded a public easement ON the beach but there is no legal way to get to it without walking on wet sand.

What's even worse, is the county could "potentially" repeat the Redfish Village on the lot next door to RFV. How about potentially another 500 or more people poured into the same area? There really is no limit as long as they are "bussed" in so it seems.

I and my neighbors obviously have serious motivations to protect our properties regarding public access. The county won't.

BMBVl, thank you for the computer lesson. I need all the help I can get. I really believe everyone is deedling and promoting easements they aren't intitled to in the first place. But then, I'm no lawyer (thank God) and they are the ones who will finally determine the outcome of this situation along with the judges.(Many of which have no common sense.) I appreciate your position. I just think its greedy, uncaring and not in the interest of humanity in general.

BMBVl, thank you for the computer lesson. I need all the help I can get. I really believe everyone is deedling and promoting easements they aren't intitled to in the first place. But then, I'm no lawyer (thank God) and they are the ones who will finally determine the outcome of this situation along with the judges.(Many of which have no common sense.) I appreciate your position. I just think its greedy, uncaring and not in the interest of humanity in general.

Whomever previously remarked on the security not being familiar with the English language was spot on, and it isn't due to the security being foreigners. Today, I went to the access to observe. Before I walked far enough to see the Gulf, a security lady stopped me and began asking questions about where I was staying, where I was going, what I was carrying, etc, before proceeding to confuse the heck out of me with her directives on where I could sit on the beach. She sounded really confused herself. I just played along. She began by telling me that if I was going to sit on a towel (I had no chair in hand), that I had to be in the wet sand. I asked her what was the point of bringing a towel to the beach if it was going to be wet.

She said, "well, not the wet stuff. Let me show you."

We walked up to the top of the walkover where she pointed to toward the Gulf's edge, and said, "you see that part right there?" pointing to an area which is a good 200 ft away, "you can sit their, but The Retreat owns all of this."

I asked, "how could someone own the beach?"

The security guard replied, "talk to the Sheriff."

I said, "so you are telling me that I have to sit on the wet sand if I want to be on the beach. That doesn't make sense."

The lady replied, "You see that wet part? The County owns it."

I said, "So you mean I can sit on the dry sand?"

Security said, "no, you see where the wet sand is? You can sit where it isn't wet, but the water comes up to it."

I responded, "so if the water comes up to it, you are saying it isn't wet, and that it is dry?

She seemed more confused with her own information at this time. She again pointed to the area 200 ft from us, and said, "you see that area down there, you can sit on it."

I said, "that is very confusing."

Again she told me, as she shook her head at the craziness of the entire idea, and said, "talk to the Sheriff."

She went on her way, not to be seen again.

I will point out that I saw a few people set up on dry sand in front of The Retreat. They were not asked to leave or move during the hour I was there. I saw most of them walk down from the access at the Inn @BMB. There were other people set up on the line where the highest splash of water meets the dryer sand, and I saw a couple of other people sitting in the wet sand, getting splashed by the waves.

I did notice that several people came out from the gated entrance at the Inn @ BMB and walked down to The Retreat property to set up camp. The beach in front of The Retreat, was otherwise deserted, except for two or three people who appeared to be in some Retreat chairs, way down the beach. In front of the Inn @ BMB, the entire beach front was shoulder to shoulder umbrellas and chairs. It seemed to me that maybe the private property crap could have started as a fight between the Inn @ BMB and The Retreat.



On another note, are permits required from the DEP to post signs on the beach? Who can I contact at the DEP to see if permits where pulled for the signs posted in front of Inn @BMB and White Cliffs? (The Retreat's signs appear to be on the dune line, not the sandy lower elevation of the beach.)