Sanctuary by the sea trying to stake out a "private beach"

Discussion in 'Real Estate' started by gmarc, Apr 3, 2010.

  1. jodiFL

    jodiFL Beach Fanatic

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2007
    Messages:
    2,471
    Likes Received:
    536
    Location:
    SOWAL,FL
    YEp.. and guess what agencies (FDEP maybe??) current surveys are used to determine any PRIVATE current topo surveys? :yikes:That is why the FLorida statues make it very clear how and who may determine the MHWL.
     
  2. Ari Silverstein

    Ari Silverstein Beach Lover

    Joined:
    May 2, 2010
    Messages:
    101
    Likes Received:
    1
    I'll tell you as I just received the findings regarding the establishment of the MHWL on several hundred acres of inland, tidal mangrove swamps. The state agency specifically that deals with these findings is the Survey and Mapping of the State Lands, Div of FDEP (Roy Maddox, Lead).

    They used a mathematical formula whose inputs are a combination of aerials over 19 years...since there are no current FDEP (initiated and purchased) coastline and sovereign submerged boundaries on these tracts and few historical ones. This is true for the majority of the coast lines, it is impossible and impractical to keep up to date on MHWL/ECL changes. FDEP does respond to inquiry and challenge.

    In order to obtain a financable and clear title, FDEP and the Landowner need to agree in writing on the MHWL and/or obtain a deed which delineates the boundaries as issued by the Board of Trustees Internal Improvement (Trust) Fund (aka TIIFT deed).

    If this cannot be agreed, then it typically ends up in a Govenors Cabinet meeting or a civil lawsuit for determination. All you have to have is two or more surveyors who do not agree.

    The landowner has the onus for setting forth the challenge not determining the MHWL in most practical littoral rights issues.


    Considering that the US and especially Florida are coastline dominated (50% live in coastal counites?), this issue is extremely significant.


    The statutes lay out the processes but the end result of the processes requires agreement and coordination between the state and the private property owner. Without that, you may find that you have an uninsurable title, or a qualified title and a potentially serious land use issue ((especailly if you are wanting littoral (water) access or submerged land leases or relief from those leases)).
     
  3. Ari Silverstein

    Ari Silverstein Beach Lover

    Joined:
    May 2, 2010
    Messages:
    101
    Likes Received:
    1
    Well, clarity is often clouded by sincere but emotional goobledegob. :lol:
     
  4. scooterbug44

    scooterbug44 SoWal Expert

    Joined:
    May 8, 2007
    Messages:
    16,736
    Likes Received:
    3,327
    Location:
    Sowal
    Or people who can't see the forest for the trees. :roll:

    All I said was that the property owner wanting to evict someone from "their" beach has to have a recent survey to prove where the MHWL is.
     
  5. Desso

    Desso Beach Lover

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2008
    Messages:
    179
    Likes Received:
    68
    I actually own beach front property. I don't live on it. I would much rather keep what's on it. Nothing. Personally and as a Floridian, I would be embarrassed and ashamed to be running people of "my" beach. Absolutely absurd. Customary and reasonable use is fair to me. Clean up, follow the dune walkway, and fill in your holes in the sand. Plenty of room for everybody on our beaches.
     
  6. Ari Silverstein

    Ari Silverstein Beach Lover

    Joined:
    May 2, 2010
    Messages:
    101
    Likes Received:
    1
    Altruistic but potentially very costly.

    How will you feel when a person you have never met trips over a beach chair landward of the Mean High Water Line put there by a person who you never met, breaks a leg, and you get sued by an attorney you never met? :confused:

    If you are a condo association and you fail to meet your responsibility to the condo owners to protect the community from just this kind of legal aggressiveness, then what is it that you are going to tell your Owners at the meeting to discuss this $500,000 liability?

    The facts are plain and simple. Private property exists above the MHWL, we bought it and we must take both the pleasure and the responsibility for it.

    The rest is all emotion.
     
  7. Ari Silverstein

    Ari Silverstein Beach Lover

    Joined:
    May 2, 2010
    Messages:
    101
    Likes Received:
    1
    Having a recent survey unverified by FDEP is valueless. Having a recent, verified survey without proper markers to visibly set aside your littoral properties is valueless.

    What is valuable is staked, separated private property that a sheriff can easily determine has been trespassed.

    Then and only then can you expect and demand an eviction, a prosecution and the appropriate law enforcement actions.
     
  8. John R

    John R needs to get out more

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    6,772
    Likes Received:
    806
    Location:
    Conflictinator
    So, we can expect to see a bunch of silversteinlandburgs all roped/fenced/chained off all up amd down the beach? That will attract so many to this area.
     
  9. Ari Silverstein

    Ari Silverstein Beach Lover

    Joined:
    May 2, 2010
    Messages:
    101
    Likes Received:
    1
    Entirely possible depending on the US Supreme Court rulings upcoming.
     
  10. Ari Silverstein

    Ari Silverstein Beach Lover

    Joined:
    May 2, 2010
    Messages:
    101
    Likes Received:
    1
    Correct.

    Just stay seaward of the Mean High Water Line and create no obstruction or hindrances that would violate the private property owners rights. Which are guaranteed by the State Of Florida.

    The only issue with the private property sign is he had the wrong flag. :D
     
  11. shellak

    shellak Beach Fanatic

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2008
    Messages:
    315
    Likes Received:
    161
    i saw those flags and thought it was so tasteless. trying to attach "patriotism" to their greed. ha!
     
  12. shellak

    shellak Beach Fanatic

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2008
    Messages:
    315
    Likes Received:
    161
    john, what does the reference to "silversteinlandburgs" mean? i'm not following...
     
  13. tsutcli

    tsutcli Beach Fanatic

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2008
    Messages:
    921
    Likes Received:
    109
    Location:
    Seacrest
    There is a condo. in Seacrest on the beach called Andante and they have sectioned off their slice of private beach for a couple of years now. Just walked by there today and beach chair set ups with umbrella's go from one property line to the other and I know what the beach chair vendor is doing because many times those chairs are not even occupied. Then in all the dry sand from the dune down to those chair set ups at the waters edge are small signs stuck in the sand declaring a PRIVATE BEACH and many times the chair guy is enforcing that on people walking by. In many ways I can just imagine how it got that way. There is always another side to the story. We lived on the beach for several years and had no problem with others using our beach. Our deed was very clear that our property went down to the Gulf of Mexico but felt and still do that the beach is here for everyone to enjoy. But (and this is a BIG but) the problem was as this area became more popular people would slide down the dunes, leave big holes, use the sand as their personal ashtray, leave cans and bottles behind along with other litter and not remove their chairs and other beach items when we had signs posted that we maintained a turtle friendly beach. Sure we have a beach ordinance but the county hardly enforces that and had a conference about just that this afternoon with a turtle walker and beachfront homeowner. It was such a problem keeping our little beach clean and free of debris in spite of the signs which people didn't take seriously. We had one family actually replace their lounges and chairs THREE times before they took our sign seriously that we would dispose of items left behind. It was quite funny to watch the same family return to the beach daily with new items complete with store tags and that happened three days in the row before they took the hint we meant business. If our visitors left our beach the way they found it, there would be NO PRIVATE BEACH SIGNS!
     
  14. shellak

    shellak Beach Fanatic

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2008
    Messages:
    315
    Likes Received:
    161
    those signs go well with a beach wedding, huh? even if the wedding is on the public beach, you will probably end up with the signs in your photos!!
     
  15. melscuba

    melscuba Beach Lover

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2009
    Messages:
    241
    Likes Received:
    37
    Location:
    Roswell, Ga hoping SoWal someday
    Can I just tell you that whole Andante things bugs the Hell out of me. We just purchased in Magnolia Cottages by the Sea last spring. When we came down to see the house and that stretch of beach in February, and again in April... there were no signs, or indication of a problem. Now we go down and they have it roped off, with barely room to walk in front of it. It's ugly and gives a feeling of such rudeness. I deal with that sh-- on Ga 400.... not on 30A. And to my left a lovely beach chair company has erected chairs and umbrellas as far as the eye can see. What the Hell?? I want to go down to that beautiful piece of the beach and be left alone, as do my guests. I'm almost embarrassed by it. I can promise you this, I will work on it. Those little buggers will get a dose.
     
  16. sadie1

    sadie1 Beach Lover

    Joined:
    May 31, 2009
    Messages:
    144
    Likes Received:
    17
    Theres no enforcing this rule legally unless you produce a certified new survey daily.you can't just guess with a sign. the lifeguards who enforce it near me know not to mess with me
     
  17. melscuba

    melscuba Beach Lover

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2009
    Messages:
    241
    Likes Received:
    37
    Location:
    Roswell, Ga hoping SoWal someday
    We were down this past weekend.... AMAZING. Oh my goodness, the water, the weather. I haven't heard that many screams of laughter from my girls in a long time. It was just what we needed. However, things are the still the same with regard to Andante and their displeasing signs and chairs propped all the way to the water line. Can I complain and expect something to be done? Do I just call the Sheriff's office. Do you guys know who exactly I go to about this?? The signs are not only rude, but unsightly lining the beach. And, they are up all night along with the beach chairs and umbrellas. My husband and I went for an evening walk and were met with the signs and chairs practically being washed away with the tide. I'll try to post the pictures I took, but I seem to be a bit more challenged with the newer format of things.
     
  18. melscuba

    melscuba Beach Lover

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2009
    Messages:
    241
    Likes Received:
    37
    Location:
    Roswell, Ga hoping SoWal someday
    Here are the pictures.
     

    Attached Files:

Share This Page