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A man is flying in a hot air balloon and realizes he is lost. He reduces height and spots a man down below. He lowers the balloon further and shouts: "Excuse me, can you help me? I promised my friend I would meet him half an hour ago, but I don't know where I am."

The man below says: "Yes you're in a hot air balloon, hovering 30 feet above this field between 40 & 41 degrees latitude and 120 and 124 degrees West longitude."

"You must be an Architect," says the balloonist.

"I am" replies the man. "How did you know?"

"Well" says the balloonist, "everything you have told me is technically correct, but it's of absolutely no use to me and I still don't know where I am."

The man below says, "You must be a contractor."

"Well yes" replies the balloonist, "but how did you know?"

"Well", says the man, "You don't know where you are or where you're going. You've made a promise that you can't keep, but now you expect me to solve your problem. You're in the same position as you were before we met, but now it's my fault."

Excellent, thanks
 
Why would you want to override the mfg. since that is the source of the warranty?

How do you flash windows?

A true story......I worked on a commercial office building project several years ago. The owner was going to install Open Plan furniture. The architect had difficulty with the layout in a particular area so he found a creative solution: he deleted a column. Now mind you, the building shell was standing, it is just that the column got in the way of systems furniture. You have to admire his creativity.

Like SHELLY's short story there is the technical, paper pushers side and then there's the field side. Chickpea and I could go back and forth on this forever, but this is real and there is 20/20 hindsight now. The window manufacturers at the time of construction did not have real and workable detailing for flashing windows set (recessed) into masonry openings. The detailing that was coming out to the field did not even match the condition. The Architect would have to be spoon fed the conflict information by the lower member of the food chain and, I promise you, after weeks of hold ups the Architect would submit a new detail that again did not match what they drew themselves.

Yes I have got a chip on my shoulder. We worked on every beach front home in that row of Rosemary Beach. From Dr. Smith to Dave and Ivy's to Greer 1 and Greer 2, Lee and Carol's, Southern Accents. There were so many plan and flashing detail failures out there and conditions that didn't match the drawings yet many times the professionals that designed them couldn't really get their heads around the detail inconsistencies.

Somebody on Board here must remember when we built Southern Accents right there. There were loads of design professionals out there high fiving one another and congratulating one another as us lowly field workers moved the project 5 weeks ahead of schedule. Guess who had to burst their bubble and bring to their attention that the second story gulf front porch was designed with only windows, no doors to get out there?

Wearing stylish cool round glasses doesn't make someone a master designer.
All I can think is:
 

Chickpea

Beach Fanatic
Dec 15, 2005
1,151
366
30-A Corridor
AAbsolute and I are going to agree that we disagree (politely of course).

My few comments had actually nothing to do with the Rosemary House (so I may be in the wrong thread) - I was commenting on the different roles and responsibilities the different players have and the legal and professional responsibilities the Architect and Builder have to their client (the Owner)..

I do not see the professional relationship as AAbsolute sees it between Architect and Owner and Builder. As simple as that.

I am off to work now so will catch back up this evening. Thanks
 
AAbsolute and I are going to agree that we disagree (politely of course).

My few comments had actually nothing to do with the Rosemary House (so I may be in the wrong thread) - I was commenting on the different roles and responsibilities the different players have and the legal and professional responsibilities the Architect and Builder have to their client (the Owner)..

I do not see the professional relationship as AAbsolute sees it between Architect and Owner and Builder. As simple as that.

I am off to work now so will catch back up this evening. Thanks

It's been fun jousting, Peace Chickpea.
 

ASH

Beach Fanatic
Feb 4, 2008
2,157
442
Roosevelt, MN
ASH, I'm going to have to call you into the fray. I know you have more field experience in window and door installation and detailing than most Architects or Builders and I understand that you worked with window guidlines for the International Code. I have to ask: How many different waterproofing details are there for windows and doors? Which one is correct? Have you ever seen a condition where the manufacturer's install detail does not work in a place like Rosemary Beach? Have you ever seen an Architect specify an install or flashing detail that doesn't work for their own design condition? Can a Building Contractor override the Architect of Record and/or the Manufacturer if their own experience persuades them to execute a different detail? Seriously, Thanks

I'll take a stab at this. Thanks for the invite.
I must preface the whole conversation as follows: There is no such thing as a waterproof home. They are and always should be called "water-resistant".

Here's why: That person installing the flashing around a window or sealing up the block may still be hung over from the other night.....or may have financial troubles on their mind and just aren't completely focused on what they're doing.
Also, buildings have been known to shift and settle over time. Wood bucks can swell when they pick up moisture and inversely shrink when they dry out all affecting the line of defense called Np1, Peel and Seal, paint, stucco and so on.

Regardless of the sealing system, it will require periodic maintenance.

It is fair to say that neither the manufacturers or building departments have taken full responsibility for the space between the window and the opening. They both reference the other by statements such as "refer to manufacturers recommended installation and flashing instructions" and "Finish as applicable local code dictates". This is why there remains confusion at the builder and AIA level. To override the AIA or building inspector is a builders choice as long as they understand that they are now on the hook should a failure occur. I would imagine an inspector simply would not grant a C.O. if they weren't satisfied that proper steps were taken to seal the building.

Sealing details depend on whether you are using a house wrap, felt paper or some type of spray on gooey stuff. I personally support backer rod and caulk whenever an opening is involved. Caulk until your conscience tells you to stop and then squirt in just a bit more for good measure. Caulk is not a place where you want to save a few pennies on building materials. Get the good stuff and do it right the first time. No, I have no vested interest in caulk. :D

Alright, too long already. Does my response bring up other questions?
 
I'll take a stab at this. Thanks for the invite.
I must preface the whole conversation as follows: There is no such thing as a waterproof home. They are and always should be called "water-resistant".

Here's why: That person installing the flashing around a window or sealing up the block may still be hung over from the other night.....or may have financial troubles on their mind and just aren't completely focused on what they're doing.
Also, buildings have been known to shift and settle over time. Wood bucks can swell when they pick up moisture and inversely shrink when they dry out all affecting the line of defense called Np1, Peel and Seal, paint, stucco and so on.

Regardless of the sealing system, it will require periodic maintenance.

It is fair to say that neither the manufacturers or building departments have taken full responsibility for the space between the window and the opening. They both reference the other by statements such as "refer to manufacturers recommended installation and flashing instructions" and "Finish as applicable local code dictates". This is why there remains confusion at the builder and AIA level. To override the AIA or building inspector is a builders choice as long as they understand that they are now on the hook should a failure occur. I would imagine an inspector simply would not grant a C.O. if they weren't satisfied that proper steps were taken to seal the building.

Sealing details depend on whether you are using a house wrap, felt paper or some type of spray on gooey stuff. I personally support backer rod and caulk whenever an opening is involved. Caulk until your conscience tells you to stop and then squirt in just a bit more for good measure. Caulk is not a place where you want to save a few pennies on building materials. Get the good stuff and do it right the first time. No, I have no vested interest in caulk. :D

Alright, too long already. Does my response bring up other questions?

I appreciate you coming out to center stage when I put you on the spot. You should give me a noogie or something if I see you in the real world.

I was literally shocked that you would favor old backer rod and caulk and I thought I may finally have you until... I searched Marvin Windows Flashing Details Recessed Masonry Openings and your method was one of theirs too. I thought the days of backer rod and caulk went out when Seinfeld was still in production.

This home was built in late 2000/2001. Miami Dade was just coming into it's own and there weren't many details available for high DP windows in recessed masonry openings. At that time we were converting Simpson H2.5's into install flanges that would meet wind. There wasn't a lot of accurate data on bucking etc.

An aside, I noticed you didn't choose the liquid (pink) waterproofing that is all the rage these days. I'm not finding much in manufacturers spec's for it either, but I like it. Not a fan of most of the ridgid flashings as they can bend in wind and horizontal rain events. I like a mechanical barrier and NP1. Thanks
 
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ASH

Beach Fanatic
Feb 4, 2008
2,157
442
Roosevelt, MN
Agreed. Manufacturers do need to update their material to expand to newer materials. Is there something better than caulk and backer rod. Please show me and I'll take it back to Marvin to try to get them to include it in their details. They still listen when I speak to them.
The pink stuff was the gooey I was referring to. Do you use this to bridge from a window or door frame to the buck? What do you use for the bridge? I am assuming backer rod of some sort.
I need details please. Thanks
 
Agreed. Manufacturers do need to update their material to expand to newer materials. Is there something better than caulk and backer rod. Please show me and I'll take it back to Marvin to try to get them to include it in their details. They still listen when I speak to them.
The pink stuff was the gooey I was referring to. Do you use this to bridge from a window or door frame to the buck? What do you use for the bridge? I am assuming backer rod of some sort.
I need details please. Thanks

There is a detail for setting a window into a block wall recess that looks something like this (I'm not a computer draftsman so I did this quickly in Paint):
 
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ASH

Beach Fanatic
Feb 4, 2008
2,157
442
Roosevelt, MN
It didn't come out so good. I tried blowing it up, but can't make heads or tails out of it. Sorry
 
In the case of that detail there would not be an unsupported bridge. The seam, if you will, occurs over the install flange, then over the buck, then out onto the masonry. The liquid version has one advantage that I like better than ridgid versions which is when you must turn a corner up and another corner out like at the top right and left you can fold the saturated fabric without cutting. Kind of like wrapping a present. With the ridgid flashing systems it is easy to turn a one way corner, but you cannot turn a 2 way corner without making a cut in the material. It's that cut that worries me when it rains sideways like it did this morning.

In the detail I submitted the unit is ready for phase 2 which involves applying stainless mesh over the exposed pink product followed by impregnating the mesh with scratch, brown and finish. Last step, NP1 the trim to the assembly with pairs of finish screws co-ordinated to the NP1.

It's 1 of an infinite number of details. Sometimes the Architect wants their system, sometimes the manufacturer has their guideline and sometimes the customer and a neighbor or two overrides everyone.
 
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