Customary Use and Our 30A Legacy

[FloridaBeachBum]

Dawn, there were 3 responses to Dave Rauschkolb’s “modified” re-post for private beachfront owners to surrender Constitutional property right of private use and enjoyment to anyone, if the beachfront owner so chooses; not two. In exchange for the County and Sheriff to do their jobs and perform their duty to ensure public safety and law enforcement.
#1688 Customary Use and Our 30A Legacy

Which two of three swift responses were disrespectful and why?
None of the responses said anyone was “morally wrong and anti-human”. You have. That speak volumes.
#431 Customary Use and Our 30A Legacy
Mean people who call other people they don't agree with anti-human s***. And is a hypocrite when accusing others of being disrespectful for far less.

Dawn, what other fact or verifiable opinion do you have to add to the thread that would be informative to public use of private property discussion?

#443 Customary Use and Our 30A Legacy

 

[Dave Rauschkolb]

Us and them

And after all we're only ordinary men

Me and you

God only knows it's not what we would choose to do

Forward he cried from the rear

And the front rank died

And the General sat and the lines on the map

Moved from side to side

Black and blue

And who knows which is which and who is who

Up and down

And in the end it's only round and round and round and round



Haven't you heard it's a battle of words

The poster bearer cried

Listen son said the man with the gun

There's room for you inside

"Well I mean, they're gonna kill ya, so like, if you give 'em a quick sh... short, sharp shock, they don't do it again.

Dig it? I mean he got off light, 'cause I coulda given 'I'm a thrashin' but I only hit him once.

It's only the difference between right and wrong innit? I mean good manners don't cost nothing do they, eh?"



Down and out

It can't be helped but there's a lot of it about

With, without

And who'll deny it's what the fighting's all about

Out of the way it's a busy day

I've got things on my mind

For want of the price of tea and a slice

The old man died

Us and Them - Pink Floyd - Dark Side of The Moon

 

[mputnal]

I have three questions for any of the "I must have the power to exclude people from the beach" camp:

1. Are you willing to back up all your statements with an identity if it would help prove your credibility? Restated (in case you choose not to answer): Do you care more about power to exclude or power of credibility (none of us are entitled to credibility).

2. If this lawsuit is decided in your favor do you believe it would it increase or decrease the long term property values for non beach front property owners?

3. If this lawsuit is decided in favor of public beach would you sell your property and try again on some other limited natural resource or would you extend the lawsuit with an appeal?

Caution: These questions are non linear...

 

[Reggie Gaskins]

For the twelve people who are responsible for the 80,000 views this thread has generated (and the handsome SoWal ad profits it has created), please take note...

Even though I am actually a mentally and physically challenged, bored, teenage girl named Regina - living in a modern hut in the Australian Outback, bootlegging internet feed off of my uncle’s nearby RV, your dilemma in South Walton is STILL a model for the rest of your country to follow. But what do I know?

Over 1,600+ posts now, One set of Yanks with your Constitution and laws as it’s foundation; lists factual arguments and questions to discuss. Albeit passionately. The other set, uses emotion and distraction, refusing to discuss the facts. Again, with passion. But what do I know?

My initial post had trigger words planted in it to jolt honest discussion. Instead, it polarized. Consider the source. Forget about me, but the material I’ve provided, but mostly from the others, is real and honest. Here’s some more honesty lest you should fall into the diversion trap... but what do I know?

The Cleveland suburb of Euclid has devolved into serious blight since Euclid Beach Park closed Sept 28, 1969.

Lakefront homes are some of the least desirable, worth often less than $100,000.

Lakefront homes have no access to coast, buffered by a vertical, rocky bluff.

Lakefront homes are losing nearly 3 feet of property per year to lake erosion.

The waterline is unusable jagged rock environment.

The new agreement is an easement agreement, along with straight purchase from holdouts.

The City will solve the erosion problem for the owners.

The City will drastically improve their property values by building a usable asset.

Not sure this has even a smidgeon of an analogy to your situation. Actually, it would appear, quite the opposite. But what do I know?

 

[Stone Cold J]

From Pending Editorials

The $50 Million Dollar Question that silenced Dave Rauschkolb

Has the county proven, or even provided any evidence, that the removal of property rights (right of exclusion) is reasonable, without interruption, or without dispute?

In December 2018 the Walton BCC filed a lawsuit against owners of 1194 parcels of deeded property (several thousand individuals), to remove property rights, in particular, the right to exclude others from their private property.

Specially the BCC lawsuit states “3. The sources of evidence that the County Commission would rely upon to prove a recreational customary use has been ancient, reasonable, without interruption, and free from dispute are listed on Exhibit “B” which is attached hereto and incorporated herein by reference. PASSED AND DULY ADOPTED in a special session by the Board of County Commissioners for Walton County, Florida, this 3rd day of November 2018.”

The Plaintiffs in the lawsuit, Walton BCC and co-plaintiff FBFA, has caused over $2 Million Dollars of legal fees to be already spent, but have yet to provide any evidence in Exhibit B that the claim is reasonable, without interruption, or free from dispute (some lawyers have called this lack of evidence a potential basis for a frivolous lawsuit claim).

House Bill 631 did not create this problem and repealing House Bill 631 will not fix it. HB 631 simples ensures that a third-party, neutral arbiter – a court – must be the one to declare customary use over a piece of privately-owned land. This process ensures that a local government (meaning the Walton County Commissioners) cannot infringe on private property rights by unilaterally declaring “customary use” without judicial oversight. This will be decided in a court of law and not a court of public opinion.

No other Walton BCC ever passed an Ordinance removing private property rights in the 100+ years prior to controversial 2016 Beach Ordinance that targeted a minority group of legally deeded property owners. This has nothing to do with the rights of people to swim, walk the coast-line, fish, take pictures of the sunset. The coastline is owned by the State of Florida. The issue is the BCC wanting to take control (Right of Exclusion) from the owners of private properties next to the coast-line to permit unlimited people with unlimited beach equipment. An affidavit stating that someone, at sometime, was on a beach, and saw other people on the beach, but doesn't state the parcel ID, or if the people were on public property, or private property, or even owned, or rented the property, does not prove, or even suggest that unlimited people with unlimited equipment have been using private property against the will of the property owner from time immemorial. If it didn’t exist prior to 2016 how is it ANCIENT that UNLIMITED people with UNLIMITED BEACH EQUIPMENT may use Private Property AGAINST THE WILL OF THE OWNER?

One of the founding fathers, James Madison in an Essay Property March 29, 1792 said “Government is instituted to protect property of every sort; as well that which lies in the various rights of individuals, as that which the term particularly expresses. This being the end of government, that alone is a just government which impartially secures to every man whatever is his own”. The State of Florida has passed a “Property Bill of Rights” which is posted on the Walton County Web Site and #3 is the Right of the Property owner to exclude others from their private property. US Constitution and the State of Florida Property Rights may PROVE it is not REASONABLE to target a minority group of deeded legal property owner to remove property rights, in particular the right of exclusion.

There is a history of citations for trespassing on private property, for example in July 2002 Mark Austin used a public access walkover to get to a stretch of Dune Allen beach and the property owner at the time, William Houser, who has objected to Austin's presence on "his" private property called police, who gave Austin a summons for trespassing. If the public did not have the right to gather in unlimited numbers with unlimited beach equipment against the will of the private property owner, that may prove it was INTERUPTED when the landed was deeded as private property.

According to the FBFA Lawyer, who himself was an instigator of the controversial you-tube videos, NPR interviews, and contributor of Mother Jones articles, estimates the total expense could exceed $50 Million Dollars and take 10 years. This, along with a lawsuit with thousands of defendants, costing millions of dollars, may prove that this issue is under GREAT DISPUTE,

There has been a motion to dismiss based on the lack of evidence described above, Court Document #996 in case 2018CA547, filed by George Mead on August 16, 2019. That motion has yet to be heard by Judge Green. Perhaps the ruling on that motion will save the remaining $48 Million Dollars estimated to hear this case based on zero evidence?

 

[mputnal]

Here are a few more simple questions for those that broker for power to exclude the public from our Walton County Beaches:

1. Do you wake up on Sunday mornings and read essays on why you should have the power to exclude the public from the beach? Just a suggestion but try Phillippians 2:3-16. BTW James Madison essays are important but there is a book that can help us to be better people which should be all of our purpose.

2. Do you have an answer yet on non beach front property values in Walton County if private beaches wins in court?

3. Does the Constitution represent "we the people" or "me the individual with exclusive powers"? If the ladder how do you reconcile?

4. If you believe in a Creator (supernatural or natural) where does "supreme" power exist: The Constitution of We The People of the United States of America OR The Power of ALL LIFE?

Caution: These questions may be considered Non Linear with self evident spiritual choices...

 

[FloridaBeachBum]

Stared this before recent CU believers’ latest posts. Sorry for the length but I don’t feel so bad about taking up space with facts. Considering latest CU believer’s poignant posts that bring useful information to the CU civil discourse?

Mputnal, there is NO camp of "I must have the power to exclude people from the beach". You made up that “camp” up to fit the CU believer agenda. Based on what? Rule of Law? Some belief in a BFO owner v nonBFO class warfare?

There is what I’ll call; BFO protecting Constitutional “right to private undisturbed use and enjoyment”[1], should the BFO so choose, Camp. That is a Right (you call power) and fact ALL Walton private property (including bayfront) owners have.
[1] Not a belief or opinion but law based on the Constitution.

So, there is NO camp as you describe and NO need to answer any questions, because there is no one in your self described camp. Suggestion if you want to create objective questions or polls - number 2, has two options, increase or decrease values. You excluded one other possibility (I’m guessing because it does not fit the CU agenda) - no change in (market) values.

Fact. So far the legal status quo has been and is, BFO deeded property have had, since 1776, all property right bundle of sticks, including private uninterrupted (quiet) use and enjoyment all Walton property owners have today. If BFO do prevail there is no change in BFO rights. Only in 2016 did 5 Walton Commissioners try to unilaterally declare all 1,193 BFO parcels did not have the Constitutional right of quiet private use and enjoyment.

Here’s a simple question; since 2016 when 5 political Walton Commissioners unilaterally declared by ordinance, without BFO property due process[2], the right for anyone to use ALL private beachfront property without the owner’s consent;
Have the Walton (1) tourist bed taxes and (2) residential property values (a) decreased, (b) increased, or (c) no change?
Here is some help - Visit South Walton, FL
#85 Customary Use and Our 30A Legacy

[2] Corrected by FS163.035 (BFO CU due process) by about 83% of the FL legislators, including local Brad Drake Rep, so no other FL county could do what Walton BCC did.
Note too, Okaloosa and Bay counties have not had and do not have CU. Want to guess what their bed tax and real property values have been since 2016?

Mputnal, have you read the Constitution and Bill of Rights lately?
“We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, ....”

A more prefect Union, establish justice [rule of law] ... the framers called for amendments specifically protecting individual rights from abridgement by the federal (all) government. Protecting unalienable individual rights in the Declaration of Independence, that among these are Individual Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. I did not see the "People's" right to LLH over an Individual rights. Have you? Paramount being private property rights the Government can take without just compensation (which Walton BFOs do not want) nor any person with due process and evidence the Plaintiff (Walton Commissioners and CU believers) must prove are superior to BFO Constitutional individual property rights.
Constitution of the United States of America - Bill of Rights Institute

If you want undisturbed public views of the beach for the CU believers or the “People” drive or boat to Government owned (by the People) Okaloosa Island west of the Destin pass and Eglin Santa Rosa Island. There are miles of dunes visible by car from Hwy 98 and by boat. I would not pass the guard gate without permission at the end of Santa Rosa Blvd. Government owned property prohibit pubic access - which is their right (and power) to do.
Google Maps
Google Maps

Okaloosa Island beach view
Google Maps

Hwy 98Okaloosa Island beach view
Google Maps

 

[Dave Rauschkolb]

Stared this before recent CU believers’ latest posts. Sorry for the length but I don’t feel so bad about taking up space with facts. Considering latest CU believer’s poignant posts that bring useful information to the CU civil discourse?

Mputnal, there is NO camp of "I must have the power to exclude people from the beach". You made up that “camp” up to fit the CU believer agenda. Based on what? Rule of Law? Some belief in a BFO owner v nonBFO class warfare?

There is what I’ll call; BFO protecting Constitutional “right to private undisturbed use and enjoyment”[1], should the BFO so choose, Camp. That is a Right (you call power) and fact ALL Walton private property (including bayfront) owners have.
[1] Not a belief or opinion but law based on the Constitution.

So, there is NO camp as you describe and NO need to answer any questions, because there is no one in your self described camp. Suggestion if you want to create objective questions or polls - number 2, has two options, increase or decrease values. You excluded one other possibility (I’m guessing because it does not fit the CU agenda) - no change in (market) values.

Fact. So far the legal status quo has been and is, BFO deeded property have had, since 1776, all property right bundle of sticks, including private uninterrupted (quiet) use and enjoyment all Walton property owners have today. If BFO do prevail there is no change in BFO rights. Only in 2016 did 5 Walton Commissioners try to unilaterally declare all 1,193 BFO parcels did not have the Constitutional right of quiet private use and enjoyment.

Here’s a simple question; since 2016 when 5 political Walton Commissioners unilaterally declared by ordinance, without BFO property due process[2], the right for anyone to use ALL private beachfront property without the owner’s consent;
Have the Walton (1) tourist bed taxes and (2) residential property values (a) decreased, (b) increased, or (c) no change?
Here is some help - Visit South Walton, FL
#85 Customary Use and Our 30A Legacy

[2] Corrected by FS163.035 (BFO CU due process) by about 83% of the FL legislators, including local Brad Drake Rep, so no other FL county could do what Walton BCC did.
Note too, Okaloosa and Bay counties have not had and do not have CU. Want to guess what their bed tax and real property values have been since 2016?

Mputnal, have you read the Constitution and Bill of Rights lately?
“We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, ....”

A more prefect Union, establish justice [rule of law] ... the framers called for amendments specifically protecting individual rights from abridgement by the federal (all) government. Protecting unalienable individual rights in the Declaration of Independence, that among these are Individual Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. I did not see the "People's" right to LLH over an Individual rights. Have you? Paramount being private property rights the Government can take without just compensation (which Walton BFOs do not want) nor any person with due process and evidence the Plaintiff (Walton Commissioners and CU believers) must prove are superior to BFO Constitutional individual property rights.
Constitution of the United States of America - Bill of Rights Institute

If you want undisturbed public views of the beach for the CU believers or the “People” drive or boat to Government owned (by the People) Okaloosa Island west of the Destin pass and Eglin Santa Rosa Island. There are miles of dunes visible by car from Hwy 98 and by boat. I would not pass the guard gate without permission at the end of Santa Rosa Blvd. Government owned property prohibit pubic access - which is their right (and power) to do.
Google Maps
Google Maps

Okaloosa Island beach view
Google Maps

Hwy 98Okaloosa Island beach view
Google Maps

 

[FloridaBeachBum]

Should have use the beat the dead horse image back at using pseudonyms. Can say CU believers are consistent and not credible.
Customary Use and Our 30A Legacy

 

[Bob Wells]

Should have use the beat the dead horse image back at using pseudonyms. Can say CU believers are consistent and not credible.
Customary Use and Our 30A Legacy

Says the guy behind the curtain.