http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110009890
Here is a former terrorist talking about the dangers of appeasement.
The Trouble With Islam
Sadly, mainstream Muslim teaching accepts and promotes violence.
BY TAWFIK HAMID
Tuesday, April 3, 2007 12:01 a.m. EDT
Not many years ago the brilliant Orientalist, Bernard Lewis, published a short history of the Islamic world's decline, entitled "What Went Wrong?" Astonishingly, there was, among many Western "progressives," a vocal dislike for the title. It is a false premise, these critics protested. They ignored Mr. Lewis's implicit statement that things have been, or could be, right.
But indeed, there is much that is clearly wrong with the Islamic world. Women are stoned to death and undergo clitorectomies. Gays hang from the gallows under the approving eyes of the proponents of Shariah, the legal code of Islam. Sunni and Shia massacre each other daily in Iraq. Palestinian mothers teach 3-year-old boys and girls the ideal of martyrdom. One would expect the orthodox Islamic establishment to evade or dismiss these complaints, but less happily, the non-Muslim priests of enlightenment in the West have come, actively and passively, to the Islamists' defense.
These "progressives" frequently cite the need to examine "root causes." In this they are correct: Terrorism is only the manifestation of a disease and not the disease itself. But the root-causes are quite different from what they think. As a former member of Jemaah Islamiya, a group led by al Qaeda's second in command, Ayman al-Zawahiri, I know firsthand that the inhumane teaching in Islamist ideology can transform a young, benevolent mind into that of a terrorist. Without confronting the ideological roots of radical Islam it will be impossible to combat it. While there are many ideological "rootlets" of Islamism, the main tap root has a name--Salafism, or Salafi Islam, a violent, ultra-conservative version of the religion.
It is vital to grasp that traditional and even mainstream Islamic teaching accepts and promotes violence. Shariah, for example, allows apostates to be killed, permits beating women to discipline them, seeks to subjugate non-Muslims to Islam as dhimmis and justifies declaring war to do so. It exhorts good Muslims to exterminate the Jews before the "end of days." The near deafening silence of the Muslim majority against these barbaric practices is evidence enough that there is something fundamentally wrong.
The grave predicament we face in the Islamic world is the virtual lack of approved, theologically rigorous interpretations of Islam that clearly challenge the abusive aspects of Shariah. Unlike Salafism, more liberal branches of Islam, such as Sufism, typically do not provide the essential theological base to nullify the cruel proclamations of their Salafist counterparts. And so, for more than 20 years I have been developing and working to establish a theologically-rigorous Islam that teaches peace.
Yet it is ironic and discouraging that many non-Muslim, Western intellectuals--who unceasingly claim to support human rights--have become obstacles to reforming Islam. Political correctness among Westerners obstructs unambiguous criticism of Shariah's inhumanity. They find socioeconomic or political excuses for Islamist terrorism such as poverty, colonialism, discrimination or the existence of Israel. What incentive is there for Muslims to demand reform when Western "progressives" pave the way for Islamist barbarity? Indeed, if the problem is not one of religious beliefs, it leaves one to wonder why Christians who live among Muslims under identical circumstances refrain from contributing to wide-scale, systematic campaigns of terror.
Politicians and scholars in the West have taken up the chant that Islamic extremism is caused by the Arab-Israeli conflict. This analysis cannot convince any rational person that the Islamist murder of over 150,000 innocent people in Algeria--which happened in the last few decades--or their slaying of hundreds of Buddhists in Thailand, or the brutal violence between Sunni and Shia in Iraq could have anything to do with the Arab-Israeli conflict.
Western feminists duly fight in their home countries for equal pay and opportunity, but seemingly ignore, under a fa?ade of cultural relativism, that large numbers of women in the Islamic world live under threat of beating, execution and genital mutilation, or cannot vote, drive cars and dress as they please.
The tendency of many Westerners to restrict themselves to self-criticism further obstructs reformation in Islam. Americans demonstrate against the war in Iraq, yet decline to demonstrate against the terrorists who kidnap innocent people and behead them. Similarly, after the Madrid train bombings, millions of Spanish citizens demonstrated against their separatist organization, ETA. But once the demonstrators realized that Muslims were behind the terror attacks they suspended the demonstrations. This example sent a message to radical Islamists to continue their violent methods.
Western appeasement of their Muslim communities has exacerbated the problem. During the four-month period after the publication of the Muhammad cartoons in a Danish magazine, there were comparatively few violent demonstrations by Muslims. Within a few days of the Danish magazine's formal apology, riots erupted throughout the world. The apology had been perceived by Islamists as weakness and concession.
Worst of all, perhaps, is the anti-Americanism among many Westerners. It is a resentment so strong, so deep-seated, so rooted in personal identity, that it has led many, consciously or unconsciously, to morally support America's enemies.
Progressives need to realize that radical Islam is based on an antiliberal system. They need to awaken to the inhumane policies and practices of Islamists around the world. They need to realize that Islamism spells the death of liberal values. And they must not take for granted the respect for human rights and dignity that we experience in America, and indeed, the West, today.
Well-meaning interfaith dialogues with Muslims have largely been fruitless. Participants must demand--but so far haven't--that Muslim organizations and scholars specifically and unambiguously denounce violent Salafi components in their mosques and in the media. Muslims who do not vocally oppose brutal Shariah decrees should not be considered "moderates."
All of this makes the efforts of Muslim reformers more difficult. When Westerners make politically-correct excuses for Islamism, it actually endangers the lives of reformers and in many cases has the effect of suppressing their voices.
Tolerance does not mean toleration of atrocities under the umbrella of relativism. It is time for all of us in the free world to face the reality of Salafi Islam or the reality of radical Islam will continue to face us.
Dr. Hamid, a onetime member of Jemaah Islamiya, an Islamist terrorist group, is a medical doctor and Muslim reformer living in the West.
Replies
230Banned
Then why didn't you name this thread "The Trouble with Extremist Religion"?
Certain people of ALL religions mis-use and re-interpret their messages to justify horrible actions. Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus you name it.
What I so strongly disagree with in this thread is the flipant demonizing of only one group.
How are you ever going to empower and begin a dialogue with progressive elements in Islam when you demonize the entire group so casually?
And how many of your criticisms are based on a comparison of secular, economically advanced democratic nations as compared to religiously oriented, third world countries?
very good point. consider what freedom OF religion does to a nation vs. freedom FROM religion. nations that inhibit religion are generally facist and 3rd world. most conflicts come from inhibiting religion. what i saw in bosnia was a tragic case of facists insisting on eliminating and "cleansing" cultural differences. when you can learn to celebrate people's differences instead of condemn them, then you will be closer to understanding what brings peace.
i think that it is your right to dislike religion and not practice any religion. i don't believe it is people's right to insist on the elimination of other's religions. that is completely anti-thetical to honoring basic human rights and an intolerance that leads us in the direction of oppression and war.
Banned
:scratch:Interesting. If you do that, you basically get the message, "kill the Christian Extemists."Scary thought.
really? in which post of mine do you find such language?
Beach FanaticAuthor
Then why didn't you name this thread "The Trouble with Extremist Religion"?
Certain people of ALL religions mis-use and re-interpret their messages to justify horrible actions. Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus you name it.
What I so strongly disagree with in this thread is the flipant demonizing of only one group.
How are you ever going to empower and begin a dialogue with progressive elements in Islam when you demonize the entire group so casually?
And how many of your criticisms are based on a comparison of secular, economically advanced democratic nations as compared to religiously oriented, third world countries?
Uh, that was the title of the article. Same reason the other was "The U.S. War, Five Years On".
I'd be happy to address economically advanced countries. However, economically advanced countries are not overtly threatening our life and liberty, so I thought I should get to this first.
Beach FanaticAuthor
An educational exercise for MF and 6thGen: Take your list of ranting posts, substitute Christian for every time you said Muslim, America for each time you wrote Middle East, and then reread your posts.
You will find that your posts would sound exactly the same as the rantings of "Islamo-Fascists" (or whatever media term you are using).
If you two were in the other shoes and were living in Iraq, you would be leading some suicide bomber or death squad group.
As an exercise, why don't you do that to something I've posted?
SoWal Expert
... It is part of the religion to debate the 613 commandments or religious laws and how they should be implemented or adapted depending on rabbi, etc....
Islam does not encourage debate or discussion ...
From my personal experiences, Christianity does not encourage debate or discussion. Why do you point fingers only at Islam but not at Christians who are similar in that respect?
Just like Christianity, while some denominations have homosexual rabbis, others consider it against Jewish law. ...
Please enlighten us on what denomination of Christianity accept homosexuality amongst its ministers.
SoWal Expert
really? in which post of mine do you find such language?So are you not saying that you believe in killing the Islamic Extremists? I'm not reading back through four pages of craziness, but I believe that someone was talking about that, and it is very possible that it is not you, but I didn't use your name specifically.
Beach FanaticAuthor
...
From my personal experiences, Christianity does not encourage debate or discussion. Why do you point fingers only at Islam but not at Christians who are similar in that respect?
Please enlighten us on what denomination of Christianity accept homosexuality amongst its ministers.
I've had very, very different experiences, but it's one anecdote to another. The United Methodist Church, as well as The Episcopalian Church are two off the top of my head. I believe they are wrong, for the same reason I believe that the Church should not have an openly adulterous minister at the pulpit.
Banned
...
From my personal experiences, Christianity does not encourage debate or discussion. Why do you point fingers only at Islam but not at Christians who are similar in that respect?
Please enlighten us on what denomination of Christianity accept homosexuality amongst its ministers.
the prior post was asking about judaism in comparison to islam. christianity was not involved in the question. i based my assessment on both from reading both biblical texts and studying with a rabbi and imam.
as for which christian denominations accept homosexuality among ministers, episcopalians (a major protestant denomination) actually have gay bishops.
Edited
SoWal Insider
um yeah..that's itThe ultimate display of patriotism is to criticize one's own malignant behavior. I have traveled the world, I suspect, as much or more than you in the service of my country, and I can tell you, there's more to consider than your obvious hatred of Muslims. Israel will be at war, in my opinion, forever, because of the intractability of both sides. You have multiple citizenships, but choose to live here, because of what reason? The quality of life, freedom, and opportunity is here. You are here for the money available and lifestyle. If you want to try hell on for size, go live in the Middle East. There's more potential for affluence in the Middle East than anywhere on earth because of the availability of oil, yet it is the most consistently violent place because of mutual religious and ethnocentric hatred. Each and every side believes in it's own infallible rectitude, and the result is never ending anger. America is anything but homogenous, and I believe we've come a long way in a short period of time by shedding much of the "my way or the highway" attitude you so freely sling around. You don't have the market cornered on suffering.
honestly, i'm so shocked by the narrowmindedness of some of these answers i don't know how to respond.
i agree with alqueda in that it is quite easy to get americans fixated on themselves in these issues. they really do believe it's all about them. and all about their approach racism or diversity and it really has nothing to do with facist islamicists or their mission.
it's an incredibly patronizing view of the rest of the world.
i think that for some people like rancid who OBSESS on differences because they live and work and exist in such a homogoneous world they kind of only know a shopping mall version of multiculturalism. so i understand that somebody like that would critique my perception because someone like me, who has worked with NGOs and lived in other countries and has a family made up of people from other nations is just so foriegn to him.
you have an idea in your head of what it means to be tolerant of others, but you have never bothered listening to or living with others. the way you speak to me is proof of that. i would encourage you to try to look beyond your americanized view of the world.
ironically, it's VERY difficult for many americans to understand how much people from other country's admire and like america and it's way of life. AND the fact that they are free to criticize itunlike the situations in their own countries.
i truly believe that for many uneducated americans or propagandized americans, they believe to hate themselves and their country is the equivalent of being tolerant and understanding of others. it's so sad and such a xenophobic viewpoint.
Beach Fanatic
since i have never even hit or touched another human being in anger, even in sport, i seriously doubt that would be me.
the fact that you keep coming back with insults instead of information suggests that perhaps it is you with anger issue. a little self-reflection might be in order for you before you go on the attack again.
also, the middle east is not a one people or one way of life. much like america. so if you ever have the chance to meet someone outside of your white suburban neighborhood, please try and remember that, as much of what you say is very racially and culturally offensive to some.
What information would you like?
Banned
So are you not saying that you believe in killing the Islamic Extremists? I'm not reading back through four pages of craziness, but I believe that someone was talking about that, and it is very possible that it is not you, but I didn't use your name specifically.
um, no. that's not me.
here's a helpful lesson in peace and tolerance for all the hypocrites on this board. if you're going to take the time to insult me and accuse me of things, you can take the time to read through the posts.
k, honey?
and as far as i saw, that wasn't anyone else. many people have posted articles and ideas of others. i have not seen anything that suggested a person on this board wanted to murder muslims. i'm not sure where you'd get such a violent idea. probably from the same person "rancid" who suggested that 6th gen and i were potential terrorists.
as for what i would do personally, i am engaging you on a purely intellectual level. i have not allowed my personal beliefs into the discussion because i don't really think anybody here needs to know, nor would i be so self-absorbed as to devolve into a 3 hrs discussion about the evolution of my principals.
suffice it to say, i'm not as violently hate-filled as some of the responders have been to me.
Beach Fanatic
I believe they are wrong, for the same reason I believe that the Church should not have an openly adulterous minister at the pulpit.
Adultery, as defined by the bible, includes anyone who is divorced and has remarried.
Should we chuck out all the pastors on their second marriage?
SoWal Expert
the prior post was asking about judaism in comparison to islam. christianity was not involved in the question. i based my assessment on both from reading both biblical texts and studying with a rabbi and imam.
as for which christian denominations accept homosexuality among ministers, episcopalians (a major protestant denomination) actually have gay bishops.
I had no idea about the Episcopalians allowing homosexuals to be Bishops. According to the Southern Baptists, those Bishops are going straight to Hell. Seems very confusing to me. Another twist is that the same Southern Baptists believe that if you accept Jesus Christ as your saviour, that you will go to heaven, a conundrum, if you ask me.
I now understand that you you were not comparing Christians in your thoughts, but since it is here, why do you think that many denominations (I'm guessing that some do) do not encourage discussion or debate of the religion?
Banned
The ultimate display of patriotism is to criticize one's own malignant behavior. I have traveled the world, I suspect, as much or more than you in the service of my country, and I can tell you, there's more to consider than your obvious hatred of Muslims. Israel will be at war, in my opinion, forever, because of the intractability of both sides. You have multiple citizenships, but choose to live here, because of what reason? The quality of life, freedom, and opportunity is here. You are here for the money available and lifestyle. If you want to try hell on for size, go live in the Middle East. There's more potential for affluence in the Middle East than anywhere on earth because of the availability of oil, yet it is the most consistently violent place because of mutual religious and ethnocentric hatred. Each and every side believes in it's own infallible rectitude, and the result is never ending anger. America is anything but homogenous, and I believe we've come a long way in a short period of time by shedding much of the "my way or the highway" attitude you so freely sling around. You don't have the market cornered on suffering.
honey, why on EARTH would you say i hate muslims? are you kidding me?
i actually raised $3million to save bosnian muslims. are you kidding me?
you people have clearly lost your minds. and i'm going to stop posting here. there is no point in having an intellectual discussion with people who small-minded and rude.
please do not direct your hate-speech at me again.
SoWal Insider
"There are people who can see , accept, and understand differences in others and those that cannot. MF and 6thgen cannot."6thGen, The duct tape was to keep your mouth shut. You don't want foreigners hearing your true thoughts , do you? Duct tape also facilitates better listening skills.
He also said that I'm about to lead a suicide death squad, someone else compared me to McVeigh. I don't take him seriously, because I think he's dumber than a sack of hammers. Bob told someone to take me overseas with a roll of ductape and you don't hear me whining about that. If we want to upgrade the level of discourse you should start with some other folks. "Jackass" is pretty harmless.
SoWal Expert
Adultery, as defined by the bible, includes anyone who is divorced and has remarried.and that is why many Southern Baptists preachers refuse to allow second marriages ceremonies in their church.
Should we chuck out all the pastors on their second marriage?
Beach FanaticAuthor
Adultery, as defined by the bible, includes anyone who is divorced and has remarried.
Should we chuck out all the pastors on their second marriage?
No, but you knew that. Think Jim Bakker. That's what I meant. I don't believe that the Church should have a pedophile at the pulpit either, but that's where I diverge from the Catholics (watermelon smash).
Beach FanaticAuthor
6thGen, The duct tape was to keep your mouth shut. You don't want foreigners hearing your true thoughts , do you? Duct tape also facilitates better listening skills.
I've had discussion with students in France about their politics, over drinks. We bought them a round and it confused the hell out of them since it's not common over there. They thanked us about 50 times, then bought the next round. Point is, if I can co-mingle with French students, I should be good with any group you all think I hate.
Banned
I had no idea about the Episcopalians allowing homosexuals to be Bishops. According to the Southern Baptists, those Bishops are going straight to Hell. Seems very confusing to me. Another twist is that the same Southern Baptists believe that if you accept Jesus Christ as your saviour, that you will go to heaven, a conundrum, if you ask me.
I now understand that you you were not comparing Christians in your thoughts, but since it is here, why do you think that many denominations (I'm guessing that some do) do not encourage discussion or debate of the religion?
thank you for your thoughtful answer
it seems worth my time when folks are willing to read my response!
i realize that for many people on this board their only exposure to christianity is the local flavor of southern baptists, but that's certainly not the only flavor in the bunch worldwide
and like lots of religions, if you're not a believer, some of their beliefs can seem confusing or even conflicting.as far as whether debate is encouraged in a religion that has to do with its traditions. one of the most important traditions in Judaism is to QUESTION everything. while in Taoism one must NEVER question the master. but in Buddhism it is not authoritarian at all, but very introspective.
it all depends on the nature of the religion. and often the denomination of the religion. while Judaism encourages debate, some denominations very devoutly follow their rabbi, the same is true for some Chrisitians and Muslims too. Currently, Muslisms have experienced a resurgence a "revival" if you will, in fundamentalism. Many muslims are following the commands of imams that have a violent agenda.
and like christians, muslims are evangelical. they promote and encourage conversion of others who do not follow their faith. the difference being, if a christian can't convert me, he'll pray for me! if if muslim can't a holy order has been engaged by many prominent imams to murder infidels. i'd rather be prayed for thanks
while we also have some kooks like that in Christianity, like Phelps, our governmental laws and societal norms keep him in check. unfortunately, the fundamentalists have reached a majority in many parts of the world. an because it's authoritarian, even when it's a minority, like say in Iran, many young people are struggling against an oppresssive authoritarian minority who are ruling the majority who do not want fundamentalism.
this is truly revolutionary. but in many cultures being revolutionary is not encouraged. we have a country based on being revolutionary, so we really encourage that!
religion is the cultural interpretation of a spiritual experience. so whether we like it or not, it's a human expression of spirituality. it will evolve as it has done in the past. whether you like it or not, people feel strongly about their faith and i believe it's important to allow them to express that faith, as we have done here but without infringing on the rights of others.
Banned
and that is why many Southern Baptists preachers refuse to allow second marriages ceremonies in their church.
that is the southern baptist interpretation of the bible. it is not the case for other christians.
Beach Fanatic
No, but you knew that. Think Jim Bakker. That's what I meant. I don't believe that the Church should have a pedophile at the pulpit either, but that's where I diverge from the Catholics (watermelon smash).
Well Surprise! Surprise! It turns out religion is open to many interpretations!
Bible says homosexuality is wrong, therefore condemn the gays.
Bible says adultery is wrong, hmm oops too many of us fit into that category, OK we'll just let that one slide..................
Typical.
6thGen, would it surprise you to learn that other religions are as prone to twist and re-interpret doctrine as yours? And just because you can find one nut job mullah screaming for 'Death to all Infidels' it does not represent mainstream thought?
Banned
6thGen, The duct tape was to keep your mouth shut. You don't want foreigners hearing your true thoughts , do you? Duct tape also facilitates better listening skills.
6th gen. i hope you ignore this ugly violent talk. intelligent people don't resort to censorship!:roll:
SoWal Insider
very good point. consider what freedom OF religion does to a nation vs. freedom FROM religion. nations that inhibit religion are generally facist and 3rd world. most conflicts come from inhibiting religion. what i saw in bosnia was a tragic case of facists insisting on eliminating and "cleansing" cultural differences. when you can learn to celebrate people's differences instead of condemn them, then you will be closer to understanding what brings peace.You were in ground zero for ethnic and religious hatred. Who are the facists you speak of? Most conflicts come from inhibiting religion?
i think that it is your right to dislike religion and not practice any religion. i don't believe it is people's right to insist on the elimination of other's religions. that is completely anti-thetical to honoring basic human rights and an intolerance that leads us in the direction of oppression and war.
Banned
Well Surprise! Surprise! It turns out religion is open to many interpretations!
Bible says homosexuality is wrong, therefore condemn the gays.
Bible says adultery is wrong, hmm oops too many of us fit into that category, OK we'll just let that one slide..................
Typical.
6thGen, would it surprise you to learn that other religions are as prone to twist and re-interpret doctrine as yours? And just because you can find one nut job mullah screaming for 'Death to all Infidels' it does not represent mainstream thought?
well, first of all....you are confusing biblical texts with religious traditions.
in fact, in islam the call for jihad has become incredibly mainstream in the religion during our generation unfortunately. it certainly doesn't mean that applies to all muslims, but it doesn't hurt to be accurate even when the news is not so pleasant.
SoWal Insider
thank you for your thoughtful answerCliff notes: Islam needs to be fixed
it seems worth my time when folks are willing to read my response!
i realize that for many people on this board their only exposure to christianity is the local flavor of southern baptists, but that's certainly not the only flavor in the bunch worldwide
as far as whether debate is encouraged in a religion that has to do with its traditions. one of the most important traditions in Judaism is to QUESTION everything. while in Taoism one must NEVER question the master. but in Buddhism it is not authoritarian at all, but very introspective.
it all depends on the nature of the religion. and often the denomination of the religion. while Judaism encourages debate, some denominations very devoutly follow their rabbi, the same is true for some Chrisitians and Muslims too. Currently, Muslisms have experienced a resurgence a "revival" if you will, in fundamentalism. Many muslims are following the commands of imams that have a violent agenda.
and like christians, muslims are evangelical. they promote and encourage conversion of others who do not follow their faith. the difference being, if a christian can't convert me, he'll pray for me! if if muslim can't a holy order has been engaged by many prominent imams to murder infidels. i'd rather be prayed for thanks
while we also have some kooks like that in Christianity, like Phelps, our governmental laws and societal norms keep him in check. unfortunately, the fundamentalists have reached a majority in many parts of the world. an because it's authoritarian, even when it's a minority, like say in Iran, many young people are struggling against an oppresssive authoritarian minority who are ruling the majority who do not want fundamentalism.
this is truly revolutionary. but in many cultures being revolutionary is not encouraged. we have a country based on being revolutionary, so we really encourage that!
religion is the cultural interpretation of a spiritual experience. so whether we like it or not, it's a human expression of spirituality. it will evolve as it has done in the past. whether you like it or not, people feel strongly about their faith and i believe it's important to allow them to express that faith, as we have done here but without infringing on the rights of others.
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