Customary Use and Our 30A Legacy

Discussion in 'Local Government and Groups' started by Reggie Gaskins, Apr 25, 2019.

  1. BlueMtnBeachVagrant

    BlueMtnBeachVagrant Beach Fanatic

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    MALARKEY!
    If that’s your feeble attempt to silence private property rights advocates as in the info and facts we provide is “wrong”, you’d be wrong. If it’s your feeble attempt to persuade private property rights advocates to not attack your hypocrisy, total lack of respect for BFOs and perpetuation of known mistruths, you’d also be wrong.
     
  2. Jenksy

    Jenksy Beach Fanatic

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    GET OFF MY LAWN!!!
     
  3. Lake View Too

    Lake View Too SoWal Insider

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    James Bentwood: you have been one of the most fair and even tempered poster on SoWal for many years. Please don’t get sucked into this swamp of vicious animosity. That is their purpose and strategy: to bring out the worst reflexes in normal honest people and use our quotes on other sites to further their propaganda.
     
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  4. James Bentwood

    James Bentwood Beach Fanatic

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    That is despicable and if tru this thread should be deleted and all of them banned. I wondered why we had all these new bfo dix on here all of a sudden. Thanks for the warning.
     
  5. BlueMtnBeachVagrant

    BlueMtnBeachVagrant Beach Fanatic

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    “How about you? Care to step up to the plate? Start a little respectful dialogue...”

    Guess not.

    Keep hearing rumblings about deleting this thread from you and others. I guess the truth just ain’t onvenient. And just the idea of you and others suggesting that this thread be deleted brings absolute credibility to the facts presented here by private property advocates.

    Despicable me.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2019
  6. Reggie Gaskins

    Reggie Gaskins Beach Lover

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    Admins have total control, it's their forum. If they want to ban Reggie, their game, their rules. But Reggie DID do something no one else has: He created a long standing public dialogue on CU with both sides able to opine. Let's don't waste it. It appears that Reggie might have been inspired by this post last year from SoWal Al, and expanded on it. The video displays clearly what will happen in court.
    It appears that those here armed with facts aren't the ones who might be "wrong".
    Hear from professionals why the CU battle will now last eight years
     
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  7. FloridaBeachBum

    FloridaBeachBum Beach Fanatic

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    Dave Rauschkolb why do you believe you are right about CU and private property rights and everyone else is wrong? You nor any CU advocate have disputed any facts that dispute CU alternative "beliefs" on this thread. You have only called property law facts ridiculous and whined about pseudonyms, that many historic figures like Ben Franklin, Mark Twain, and many others, including the prolific in-credible CU contributors on this forum use.

    Prove these posts from just this thread wrong. Goes to the CU credibility. Goes to if you only have little ditties, cute signs, internet slides from bizarre CU activist, go pound sand responses, or do you have credible facts or law or anything other than your unsubstantiated CU beliefs or opinions? Your are right about one thing - your points are circular, challenge to present any facts?-rhetoric-facts?-rhetoric-facts? ... just not credible rhetoric.

    "Talking about credibility of facts. Here is a simple Yes or No question; is there any Seaside business/LLC, excluding the original property owner, Seaside Community Development Corporation and Seaside HOAs, that own private property in Seaside seaward from the beach top of the dunes, the dune walkovers, to the MHWL?
    Is the Seaside Community Development Corporation intervening against Walton Commissioner’s litigation against 650+ other private beachfront owners to affirm public customary use of private property?"
    Customary Use Will Destroy Our 30A Legacy

    Right or Wrong? "BTW. NO Seaside 30A beach-side LLC business owns beachfront. The Seaside developer owns the dunes, constructed walkovers, and dry sand to the MHWL in Seaside. All fact in Walton Property Appraiser and Clerk of Court public records. The Seaside developer is 1 of the 650+ private property owners intervening against Walton’s public customary use of private property litigation too."
    Customary Use Will Destroy Our 30A Legacy

    If anyone makes a public statement like; “I personally am a beachfront owner in Seaside with my restaurant” and posts it in the public domain; is that a, right or wrong fact? There is a legal difference between beachfront and beach-side or beach-view and if one is a beachfront property owner entitled to intervene against (or for) Walton Commissioners' CU litigation. Goes to credibility of any other CU belief.
    Customary Use Will Destroy Our 30A Legacy

    Want to address the impending economic "Ghost Town"-doom facing Walton County since April 1, 2017 or July 1, 2018? or that tourist taxes are up 17.8%?
    Do you dispute Walton Commissioners were considering customary use of private property as far back as 2007 or who is responsible for the ill will in South Walton?
    Want to address Vizcaya private (public) property? I guess you think Walton TDC Beach Director is wrong about private beach access easements? How about Quiet Title in Blue Mountain beach? How about there are only a "handful" of evil sneaky BFOs orchestrating a Federal beach fortification plan and State of FL HB631 to keep you and the public off all private beachfront property? Of the 13 miles of private beaches how many BFO have enforced their private property rights? 10 miles? 5 miles? 1 mile? Or is FBFA making a mountain out of a mole hill and fear mongering to advance a CU agenda to incite the masses on antisocial media with intentional misinformation?

    If you can not or refuse to answer these simple questions I'd say BFOs are right (within the laws and American morality encompassed in those laws) and more credible with facts or prove BFOs property rights wrong with credible verifiable information. Not baseless rhetoric, cute signs, and shout downs that You're Wrong and despicable.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
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  8. FloridaBeachBum

    FloridaBeachBum Beach Fanatic

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    Once on the internet, always on the internet. Even if deleted, Google and Bing have copied all the SoWal site, including the salient beliefs of CU advocates on this thread for posterity.
    Fare warning; only each person can be responsible and accountable for their own "worst reflexes" - no one else. Same with blaming evil BFOs for past and present Commissioners' ineptness and this CU mess.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
  9. BlueMtnBeachVagrant

    BlueMtnBeachVagrant Beach Fanatic

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    Heck, that sounds “even tempered” to me.

    Keep those names coming!
     
  10. mputnal

    mputnal Beach Fanatic

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    I call BS on being disrespectful no matter what side you are on. There is hypocrisy on both sides. CU wants to keep beaches open to the public yet are strongly opposed to a public pier. I see more disrespect, ridicule and shaming on the CU side. BFO's are opposed to government interfering with property rights yet the property rights they seek interfere with the common good. BFO's buildings already block our view of a beautiful natural resource and damage that resource by building on the sand dunes. Both sides are principled up the yin yang.

    This thread regardless of intent has once again brought out the worst in all of us. If we don't figure out a way to compromise our principles then both sides will ruin the 30A legacy.
     
  11. Stone Cold J

    Stone Cold J Beach Lover

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    How can we turn the entire strip of 30A beaches into a State Park? Each Walton County resident could get a yearly pass included with their property taxes and the State would limit the number of beach visitors to the available resources (parking, bathrooms, etc) and that would protect our unique and sensitive ecosystem for our grandchildren.

    Our TDC Web Site has the "Brand Promise" to "provide visitors with a relaxing escape: an upscale, yet casual, place to unwind and rejuvenate. Charm and scenic beauty define our stretch of Northwest Florida's Gulf Coast, and our white sand beaches and turquoise water offer a natural setting, where visitors feel comfortable. We deliver an unforgettable experience, filled with lasting memories".

    From Danny Glidewell District 2 Website: Commitments: (#1) "return the emphasis of our marketing to high-end, family oriented tourism that brings in more income while increasing safety and enjoyment, both in our homes and on our roadways" (#6) "base our development codes and decisions on common sense and what is the best interest of all citizens by protecting the property rights of those already working and living here as well as those seeking to develop our area" and (#7) "expand preservation of our historical heritage and insure the protection of our beautiful natural resources".

    We cannot accomplish the above and have 30A open with no density management and a free for all with no code enforcement, with tourists that feel entitled to park anywhere and end up destroying our fragile ecosystem. We already have huge infrastructure problems with 4 million tourists. What happens when we hit 6 million or 8 million?

    Last week the Destin log reported "HIGH FECAL POLUTION" at Blue Mountain and Grayton Beaches. Guess we know where 4 million tourists are using the bathroom. Our coastal dune lakes are at the highest level of pollution in 20 years.

    It doesn't matter if your are Pro CU or Pro Property Rights (as I have stated before, I am both Pro CU and Pro Property Rights and don't see that as a conflict). We must come together as a community to figure out a way to balance our unique and sensitive ecosystem compared to the desire of some to ruin it all chasing short term tourist dollars, mega rental houses, constant downgrading of our long term ecological protection plan to flip real estate for big profits, beach bars, and restaurant expansions.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
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  12. BlueMtnBeachVagrant

    BlueMtnBeachVagrant Beach Fanatic

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    No, I call BS on your BS. :) Just kidding.

    I observe a healthy mixture of emotions and opinion in your post. I have noticed that more than once you have brought up the public pier. Who was mainly against it? BFOs or others? And is it DOA?

    Regarding blocked views and building on dunes, those issues are pretty much everywhere in the U.S., especially the gulf and eastern U.S. And I’m not necessarily disagreeing. But that fat lady has sung. Not much any of us can do now.

    One important thing I’d like to bring up is about your comment, “Both sides are principled up the yin yang.” Personally I fully expect the U.S. Constitution (private property rights) to prevail over old English law (customary use).

    Once again any rational person “sitting on a jury” would not be able to decipher the very arbitrary benchmarks for customary use:

    1. Ancient.
    How long is ancient? Without absolute quantification wouldn’t it be undefinable? How many real estate contracts are signed with an undefined time element? It wouldn’t hold up in court.

    2. Reasonable.
    Reasonable is probably the easiest to visualize. Letting ALL dogs on the beach ANYTIME, riding horses on the beach and nude sunbathing all seem reasonable. Yet those activities have been made illegal by the county. In a sense, the BCC “interrupted” those activities - only allowing those that promote tourism and the money it brings. Doesn’t seem fair to dog lovers, nudists and horseback riders if customary use is being argued.

    3. Without interruption.
    Most BFOs have been pushing back for a decade. How many times does a BFO have to “interrupt”. What is interruption? “Please relocate, this is private property.”?? Posting a sign?

    4. Free from dispute
    My goodness. Just look at threads on SoWal from over 12 years ago. A lot of dispute going on there (here). Or is the action of dispute defined by someone being arrested for trespassing? We’ve got that too.

    In summary, the whole concept of customary use is very vague on its face. No UNBIASED person can come to a determination based on the above CU benchmarks. The Constitution is what holds this country together and the very vague concept of customary use, IMHO, is a direct attack on the Constitution.

    Or to tie your comment in, our yin yang holds a much truer principle.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
  13. FloridaBeachBum

    FloridaBeachBum Beach Fanatic

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    Not sure what you mean by "How can we turn the entire strip of 30A beaches into a State Park?" You mean the (1) strip of existing government owned 30A beachfront? Or (2) all 17 miles of 30A private property? Either way not legal or do-able. But keep coming up with CU alternatives.

    "We cannot accomplish the above and have 30A open with no density management and a free for all with no code enforcement, with tourists that feel entitled to park anywhere and end up destroying our fragile ecosystem. We already have huge infrastructure problems with 4 million tourists. What happens when we hit 6 million or 8 million?" Great questions for past and present Commissioners and the former Commissioner Larry Jones. So far Commissioners' answer is customary use of private property. At least the State Parks can charge the public for beach use, parking, and restrooms; plus Parks can restrict public alcohol, and pets. Private BFOs can't do any of those landward of the MHWL with CU.

    "Last week the Destin log reported "HIGH FECAL POLLUTION" at Blue Mountain and Grayton Beaches. Guess we know where 4 million tourists are using the bathroom. Our coastal dune lakes are at the highest level of pollution in 20 years." Those are test results in naturally chlorinated salt water. The dune lakes and outfalls, where all the kids play in, with the beach fowl and fishes, are not even tested. What do you think that mostly fresh water is like while the outfalls are blocked? Yuk. Need to get Commissioners' do their duty to protect the public's heath and test Dune lakes and outfalls. They are already testing the adjacent beaches. Makes too much sense I guess.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
  14. Dreamer

    Dreamer Beach Lover

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    The reason the Fecal Pollution is so high is because large homes that rent to large groups on the coastal dune lakes are still on septic. Grayton Beach, Gulf Trace, etc. Should be mandated that all homes on coastal dune lakes connect to sewer.
     
  15. FoX

    FoX Beach Fanatic

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    Yes! A good use for TDC funds! 40% of funds are mandated for advertising. But te new law to allow certain counties to use more for infrastructure and and the new additional 1 cent tax in Walton County should take care of it.

    I wish there had been a proposal for the Triumph (Oil spill) program funds.

    septic tanks and feces
     
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  16. BlueMtnBeachVagrant

    BlueMtnBeachVagrant Beach Fanatic

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    And they can close the gates to cars when parking is full. Walton County TDC just keeps on sayin’, “Come on down, the water’s fine!” And tourists park everywhere, much where they shouldn’t. And the public beaches get more crowded. At least the state parks are self-regulating as to prevent over utilization.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2019
  17. Stone Cold J

    Stone Cold J Beach Lover

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    According to one of the Plaintiff Lawyers , the issue of forced occupation of private property against the will of the property owner (chairs on private property) could be in the courts for the next 10 years. What about some short term solutions that don’t violate current Florida laws or the US Constitution until the courts decide differently?

    Seems like there is very common ground to do something more about Chair Vendors, in particular on Regional Beach Accesses (public beaches).

    Some say cancel the service totally. Some argue there are elderly and paying tourists that add to our tax base that need or desire this service. What about, just between Memorial Day and Labor Day, only the TDC can provide chairs and umbrellas at Regional Beach Accesses and no chair service (Vendor or TDC) at Neighborhood Beach Accesses? The rentals would be provided by the hour with a maximum time limit (3 hours? 4 hours?) and only by an attendant on location at each Regional Beach Access. Once the tourist paid, the attendant would place the chair and umbrella no closer than 15’ to the waters edge (per County Ordinance) and remove them when the time has expired or the guest leave. Also, most importantly, limit the number of chairs at each Regional Beach (40? 50? 60?). Once they rented out, no additional chairs are available for rent until someone leaves. Make the number of rentals available WAY LESS than 50% of the available public beach. Have an a limited edition design on the chairs with the year and sell them at the end of the season and all funds from chair sales get donated to the Turtle Watch program. That way there are no ghost chairs, and during high season there is a paid TDC rep on site to monitor conflict and call for assistance if needed.. More seasonal jobs for our local young people, similar to the lifeguards that are hired for the summer. Plus by selling the limited edition chairs at the end of the summer there are no storage costs or maintenance costs and we are helping the turtles

    Chair Vendors would still service private property areas so we are not putting them out of business. It is just the Regional Beach Access not available to them from Memorial Day to Labor Day. And as some argue, we don't owe it to anyone to provide a for profit business on Public Beach Property. Doesn't matter if it is a Chair Service or a Beach Bar.

    Also, increase the Vendor Chair fee paid to the county each year and use those funds to dedicated enforcement of chair placement and issues.

    Thoughts? What else can be done now that doesn't conflict with current Florida laws?
     
  18. Bob Wells

    Bob Wells Beach Fanatic

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    There was a time that the TDC was selective about advertising. Unfortunately that seems to have gone out the window when the State kind of made Walton TDC start donating to Visit Florida, the State tourism folks. I could be wrong though.
     
  19. FloridaBeachBum

    FloridaBeachBum Beach Fanatic

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    Great read for those who believe in the US Constitution; THE highest American law of the land, and beaches, that rejects many of the archaic English aristocratic customs a Revolutionary War was fought over.
    Who Owns America's Beaches? - Sword & Scales spring 2019 | Pacific Legal Foundation

    PLF tells it like it is unlike some surfer dudes. Founded in Pacific California History | Pacific Legal Foundation Maybe we need a FL Panhandle PLF location!
    CA where public population demands have long exceeded desirable privately owned beach supply and "progressive" governmental policies run amok. The future local politics of Walton beaches? Wonder if California has ever claimed customary use of private coastal property and prevailed? Surely if CU could prevail anywhere, CA is the place.
    PLF have an unmatched US Supreme Court track record unlike some surfer dudes. 11 Wins at the Supreme Court | Pacific Legal Foundation
    PLF helped local property rights attorneys prevailed in litigation even here in Walton County. Florida ends Walton County's unconstitutional land grab | Pacific Legal Foundation

    I hope some of the surfer dudes "shared" private-beach property access misinformation is posted so the light of facts and truth can be shown on the surfer beliefs and credibility.
    Property Rights | Pacific Legal Foundation
    Donate | Pacific Legal Foundation
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2019
  20. FloridaBeachBum

    FloridaBeachBum Beach Fanatic

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    Still no CU answers to any questions asked on this thread or evidence/facts property right positions are wrong and CU positions are right.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2019

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