Seawalls

[pgurney]

BMBV, I've followed this thread with interest from both being an owner down there (non-GF) and from a technical side. You piqued my curiosity when you said your wall was designed for 1.5 times the hydrostatic forces. I've been interested in this since first seeing these retaining walls being constructed. What hydrodynamic design parameters are used by the engineers designing these walls?

 

[Smiling JOe]

BMBV, I've followed this thread with interest from both being an owner down there (non-GF) and from a technical side. You piqued my curiosity when you said your wall was designed for 1.5 times the hydrostatic forces. I've been interested in this since first seeing these retaining walls being constructed. What hydrodynamic design parameters are used by the engineers designing these walls?

In most cases, the designs are probably Ro Cuchens' field workers'.

 

[BlueMtnBeachVagrant]

Vagrant - there is a winner in the seawall debate and it is nature. If you think you can build something that nature can't destroy then you have already lost.

Hey Simple Simon,

Go tell that to the millions of home owners along the Gulf and Atlantic coastal communities. I have to assume you're a LOSER as well assuming you own property down here.

You know, if some of you people really put some thought in your posts, you might actually come up with something!!

 

[BlueMtnBeachVagrant]

In most cases, the designs are probably Ro Cuchens' field workers'.

Now that really made me laugh out loud!!

Thank you !!!!

 

[BlueMtnBeachVagrant]

BMBV, I've followed this thread with interest from both being an owner down there (non-GF) and from a technical side. You piqued my curiosity when you said your wall was designed for 1.5 times the hydrostatic forces. I've been interested in this since first seeing these retaining walls being constructed. What hydrodynamic design parameters are used by the engineers designing these walls?

I'd suggest contacting NORTHSTAR (manufacturer of the wall material). Their home office is located in Kennesaw. Their website is http://www.northstarvinyl.com/

They actually designed the field installation drawings for our wall and most others down here that used their product. I leave the nitty gritty details of hydrodynamic forces in their hands and our loal engineer's hands as admittedly, I wouldn't know where to start calculating hydrodynamic forces. Hydrostatic is MUCH simpler (in its worse case scenario).

If you're from Atlanta (which it appears), like I am, then you might appreciate the fact the Northstar composite sheet wall product was engineered at Georgia Tech.

Take a look. Hope that will answer your question. Glad to see that someone out here even understands the difference between hyrostatic and hydrodynamic forces.

Thanks for the post.

 

[SHELLY]

When I responded to your previous post, I didn't realize you posted the above. Shelly, Zoloft works really well. Something wound you up and let you go. You are all over the place.

I thought we had a reasonable dialog going.

BUT.....It is painfully obvious that you are NOW personally using ME as punching bag for ALL the SINS in this world of ours. Sorry you see me as the root of all evil.

Geez...and I even admitted you were absolutely correct (Which, as my scores of fans will readily admit, is quite a stretch for me).

Maybe it was the part about slapping up the "For Sale" sign which touched on a nerve. ...can I offer you a Zoloft?

 

[pgurney]

BMBV,

I can certainly understand wanting to leave details to others, but did Northstar or the local engineer tell you what size of storm your wall was being designed and built to withstand?

 

[BlueMtnBeachVagrant]

Geez...and I even admitted you were absolutely correct (Which, as my scores of fans will readily admit, is quite a stretch for me).

Maybe it was the part about slapping up the "For Sale" sign which touched on a nerve. ...can I offer you a Zoloft?

Shelly you just asked "..can I offer you a Zoloft?"

No thanks, I already take it. That's why my posts are clear and to the point.

Plus it would be illegal for you to offer me Zoloft without a prescription.

Nice to know you have a number of fans. Wish I were one at the moment.

Shelly, just in case you've already forgotten (Lipitor is good for the memory, I hear - also the page up key works miracles!!), here's just part of your raving rant from yesterday....
"So go ahead and build as many seawalls, condos and shopping centers as the law allows and why not throw in drilling for oil too." ... not to mention the "I still pick up litter, but there is SO MUCH MORE now; and most disturbing to me--I couldn't give a rat's rectum if they drilled for oil 20-feet offshore from Seaside."

I'm still trying to figure out whose "nerve" was "touched" most.

Wait....what's that?? No way !!! It just can't be !!! But I've really tried so hard !!!

And the winner of the most touched nerve...
Ms. Shelly 10-0
Damn I hate losing!

Shelly, I don't know you from Adam. It APPEARS however from other posts in other threads, that you're in the real estate business. Only the best will survive down here. So if I do sell my gulf front property complete with retaining wall, and you are indeed a real estate agent/broker, you definitely lost any chance of making around $100,000 commission from me. I will give you credit for persistence (misguided somewhat). Maybe I'll let you list it afterall.

AGAIN NONE of this CRAP in our little "dialog" has anything to do with the topic including my response above !!!!!!

As a gulf front owner I won't take any sht from light weights who continue to paint a negative picture of gulf front owners who have no choice but to protect their property with the best technology available.

I just can't believe you, as a decent human being, would actually want to see your neighbor's house fall in because they didn't put in a retaining wall because YOU DID NOT APPROVE OF IT.

Here's something constructive we can discuss, if you're up to it....

Retaining walls, as I've seen down here, are NOT PERMANENT. The Hoover Dam is.

Please, no cutie posts..."What you admit your wall won't hold up?"

Each retaining wall could be removed in a couple of days if there was a "magic bullet" to the erosion situation in our 20 mile unique stretch of highly elevated sandy bluff on the Gulf.

Sally, just find it, and "You can have it your way".

When I meet someone on the beach, I don't want them to prejudge me in the light you and others are painting ALL gulf front owners who are simply putting a retaining wall to protect their homes. It borders on slanderous. Also, and much more important, it's just not nice.

I love turtles, mice, dolphins, clean white sandy beaches and clear water. You love your home. I love mine. You see we're really not that different. I am doing everything I KNOW to do to preserve all the above.

 

[BlueMtnBeachVagrant]

BMBV,

I can certainly understand wanting to leave details to others, but did Northstar or the local engineer tell you what size of storm your wall was being designed and built to withstand?

pgurney:

Of course not. If they did specify a category rating, then if it failed, they would be TOTALLY open to litigation.

I asked the SAME QUESTION to other retaining wall contractors and got the same response.

I just sincerely hope that no one will reply something to the effect "See, they won't guarantee your wall because they know it will fail". When damage is a result of acts of God, very few things are guaranteed. Admittedly, it's just a way out for them. There are a different manufacturers involved the construction of our wall...mainly:
1. sheet pile (wall material)
2. anchors
3. walers (beams that cross the entire expanse of the wall that are tied to the anchors)

IF any one of these products fails, the wall is history. Now here's the problem (AGAIN I'm not a lawyer )... normally when there is a failure of any final product (such as the retaining wall) that involves other products, every manufacturer is dragged into court. Whether or not any one manufacturer is at fault, each one is forced to defend their product, even if it did not cause the failure. The cost of litigation is expensive regardless of fault.

SO....it's much easier to basically say "we gurantee our product except for acts of God." Most warranties include this verbage. Hurricanes are acts of God in the court's eyes.

So, to answer your question: "...did Northstar or the local engineer tell you what size of storm your wall was being designed and built to withstand?" No, because they cannot and will not guarantee against acts of God.

This is not to imply that they couldn't be sued anyway. It just makes it tougher.

That is why I was so pro-active in researching what we were going to get. You're kind of on your own. Some people REALLY GOT SCREWED with their retaining wall end product.

I even considered some "local" contractors (Smiling Joe knows one). After about 3 major iterations, we settled on Northstar and a contractor who REALLY knew how to properly install retaining walls (that is his main business) as opposed to some who just do general dock building, retaining walls on the bay, walkways, decks, etc., and saw a big opportunity to make big bucks on the beach. And many succeeded.

However I truly feel we got our money's worth from a contractor whose only business is heavy marine work and has been doing himself for 30 years. That's why I believe our wall will survive and many others will indeed fail. Not everyone in my area agreed with my assessment, but most did and they followed my lead. The ones that did are all grateful after seeing the "other walls" that were cheaper.

By the way, I owe many thanks to a neighbor down the beach for turning me on the contractor we eventually used. All my fears and concerns up to that point were addressed by our contractor.

Now, let me ask you something...just curious...why did you ask about the hydrodynamic forces? Can you describe what you see as hydrodynamic forces that would affect the integrity of a retaining wall? I'm not setting you up. I really am curious. There are a couple I can think of but I'll let you go first because I'm a nice guy

Please take the time to reply.

Thank you.

 

[BlueMtnBeachVagrant]

Okay, don't bite....I have a layman's question and I really am trying to uinderstand. I have seen Galveston over the years (raised in Houston). It was my understanding that some GF property owners had "lost" their land to Mother Nature. How did that play out as far as E. Domain (couldn't abbreviate that one!).

Also, please explain who decides where to build on the dune and what agency should review plans and oversee where these homes/condos are built. I'm wanting to understand if everyone with GF property had the same set of rules and if some ignored them in order to enhance the view from their houses. I also am coming to the understanding that GF owners "own" the dunes and the property to the "high water mark". As has been stated before, I know there was panic to save houses, but still can't understand that almost a year later there is not a "standard" fix to this problem.

I have no idea what I would be doing in this situation. That said, these experiences have certainly changed my "dream" of ever owning/building gulf front. I guess I can say thanks...saved me a bunch of money!

"How did that play out as far as E. Domain (couldn't abbreviate that one!)".
Sorry, for once, I don't have an answer.

"Also, please explain who decides where to build on the dune and what agency should review plans and oversee where these homes/condos are built."
Florida Department of Environmental Protection reviews the plans regarding proper wall location.

"I'm wanting to understand if everyone with GF property had the same set of rules and if some ignored them in order to enhance the view from their houses."
The same rules apply to everyone of course (from what I understand). I'm not sure how you can enhance your view other than building a lower wall and closer to the structure. Both of these are considered more desirable to DEP anyway.

"....who decides where to build on the dune"
One small note here... Most if not ALL walls were built NOT on dunes but on the beach basically where the DUNE USE TO BE. The wall is back filled of course, and sand added to the front to "re-establish" the dune.

I know I'm being repetitive here but for you... there were no dunes to speak of after Dennis, only a (almost) vertical bluff. Just look at the pictures as they speak for themselves. Any resemblance of dunes now are man-made at the OWNER's expense. Nature would take entirely too long to restore them at the rate we're getting bombarded with hurricanes and tropical storms. So if we get hit again, maybe we have to get some sand for the front of the wall to recreate a dune for the turtles. But that's it. No more undermining. No more having to bring 1000's of truck loads to make up for the undermining (or soon to be). This is where the naysayers bark back by saying we shouldn't even do that. Utter non-sense.

"...still can't understand that almost a year later there is not a "standard" fix to this problem."
I did discuss this in previous post when I suggested that there should have been one retaining wall from Redfish Lake to Draper Lake. Although this would be more desirable from a technical standpoint, DEP allows you to choose any licensed contractor, many different wall materials, many different anchoring systems, etc.

I honestly agree there should have been a standard but then you would have the lumber industry (wood walls), vinyl wall industry, composite wall industry, etc. all suing the state for choosing their competitor's product and not allowing them to bid their product. You would also be creating a monopoly which basically is a NO-NO and generally makes things more expensive for the consumer.

My opinion is ANY of these products would be OK if they were properly ENGINEERED and INSTALLED. In that regard, I do see DEP dropping the ball. But like in my previous post, DEP doesn't want to be held liable either. That's why you hire a professional engineer (more for his stamp and insurance than for the actual services rendered - remember I said Northstar basically designed the wall with their engineers but our engineer puts it all together and submits it to DEP for the permanent permit). Composite material, in my opinion, happened to have the better specs...that's why I chose it.

"I have no idea what I would be doing in this situation. That said, these experiences have certainly changed my "dream" of ever owning/building gulf front. I guess I can say thanks...saved me a bunch of money"
According to Shelly, you should be able to pick up gulf front for next to nothing.

You've probably heard of "pump and dump" when it comes to stocks. That is boiler rooms make calls saying XYZ stock is about to take off and that you should buy it. Then after the price goes up (which it does do), the "crooks" sell their shares and make a tiddy profit.

I think these naysayer real estate agents (and the like) could benefit by implementing DUMP and PUMP (just the opposite). That is talk down all the gulf front real estate values by constantly presenting gloom and doom. Then when some of the misguided owners are unnerved and panic out, they list it with, who else, a realtor. Now the seller is asking for a lower price which makes finding a buyer more likely and then the agent gets a completed deal instead of just an expired listing. Just a thought. I know Shelly (assuming she's an agent) would not accept a multi-million dollar gulf-front listing based on her principles (unless it did not have a retaining wall of course).

Now let me ask a question since you're from Houston. Is Galveston considered a barrier island? What is the approximate elevation of properties built along the coast?

If you could describe that to me in your words, I would appreciate it. The reason being, more than once, people have compared South Walton County to Galveston on a number of occasions regarding "seawalls".

Thanks for the opportunity to clarify some items.

There, that didn't hurt. My bark is definitely bigger than my bite !!!!