Seawalls

[BlueMtnBeachVagrant]

One more thing...

From Sueshore....
"...still can't understand that almost a year later there is not a "standard" fix to this problem."

There is obviously another "fix" for all this that even some retaining wall detractors have metioned...

That is beach renourishment.

Thanks again Sueshore for your comments and questions.

 

[BlueMtnBeachVagrant]

Please use the quote feature instead of bold responses, otherwise it can become confusing as to who is responding to what. It also helps folks respond to your responses and keep the dialog going. ;-)

I really see that now with my original posts. Thanks Kurt.

 

[aquaticbiology]

Ya know BMBV, you are absolutely correct.

It's been my contention for quite some time (and more so over the last couple years) that all this over development, and the resulting RE money grab, pretty much ruined the area and the beaches anyway.

There was a time not so long ago when I was quite gung-ho about preserving the area's turtle habitat; taking up the cause against over-development and off-shore drilling; and walking the beaches with trash bag in hand picking up litter. The turtles are pretty much history (a couple have been killed during the beach renourishment activities out west); I still pick up litter, but there is SO MUCH MORE now; and most disturbing to me--I couldn't give a rat's rectum if they drilled for oil 20-feet offshore from Seaside.

So go ahead and build as many seawalls, condos and shopping centers as the law allows and why not throw in drilling for oil too.

When it's all said and done, I think once the walls are built and the sand is pumped in and looks as close to "normal" as possible (if Mother Nature is so kind), the owners won't be able to slap "For Sale" signs on those gulffront properties fast enough.

back home now - great trip and lots o fish n/w choc bay and the edges and holes of west west bay probably due to the s/e wind - small grouper (the brown lure ones) around the bridge pilings if you don't get shot



SIA (sorry in advance), but you can always tell when an area is being overdeveloped when the number of realtors outnumbers the politicians

like killer bees into Georgia, the influx of those who build long strings of rental properties and hotels will inevitably occur, either gradually or in spurts (I think we're in one of those habitat decline spurts now) - bubbles grow and pop then grow again - things will settle down once the reasonable property is all built on and the only way to go is up (vertical land), which probably is about where it is heading now

like the date palms and the bouganviellia (?), no property in northwest florida is really native, and walls to stabilize slumping cliffs to hold up houses built on instability itself shall both pass into the night before long

the spring breakers are trampling the dunes, and polluting the water with trash, puke and wee, and they too will be gone soon

then the vacationers will show up for a hectic week of being too busy trying to fit it all in that they can't relax for even one second

all of them drive cars that belch poison gasses, and the poison plane will continue to rain death upon the beach a'la the horror, the horror

about a thousand people will probably end up getting a sunburn during their florida trip that will lead to skin cancer later in their lives

some will even die either getting there or going home or choking on seared ahi at some overcrowded resturant where they waited an hour in line just to get the tuna that killed them

and you guys are worried about some puny retaining walls and slumping dune-built houses, calculatingly not built to withstand hurricane force winds using previous storm statistics to determine the possible chance it would sustain a direct hit! HA! the bluffs were there long before man was, indication a statistical probablility that currents, greed and take would happen

there are still a few undisturbed wild places remaining here and there if you know how to look for them, but their edges are shrinking and the wildlife in them has no place left to go, and the developers are sniffing around them if they can get some sucker to pony up the captial

build and shore up what you will, it will all be only a stain on the beach in a few short years time

get rid of all the people

 

[Smiling JOe]

build and shore up what you will, it will all be only a stain on the beach in a few short years time

get rid of all the people

You left out the red tide that will result from the steel seawalls.:roll:

 

[pgurney]

Now, let me ask you something...just curious...why did you ask about the hydrodynamic forces? Can you describe what you see as hydrodynamic forces that would affect the integrity of a retaining wall? I'm not setting you up. I really am curious. There are a couple I can think of but I'll let you go first because I'm a nice guy

Please take the time to reply.

Thank you.

BMBV,

There are generally two different types of walls in this situation: 1) retaining walls that are designed only to hold back soil/sand and 2) seawalls that are designed to hold back the sand/soil and withstand the forces of battering waves, scour and wave overtopping of the wall.

It is my understanding that, in Florida, for an owner to get a permit to build an armoring type of structure on their coastal property the structure must be designed as a seawall, not a retaining wall. The permit application must (in most situations) be accompanied by a report prepared by a qualified Professional Engineer registered in the State of Florida that shows the wall is designed to survive and be stable under the 30-year return storm conditions, that the top elevation of the seawall is higher than the combination of the highest surge plus the crest of the highest breaking wave, that the wall will not cause flooding or adverse impacts to upland property, the design must consider the 30-year erosion line and the design must consider both static and dynamic forces under these storm conditions.

I would hope that if the engineer was qualified and did their job that report would define for you and the state DEP what the 30-year storm conditions are, the 30-year erosion line is and provide the calculations necessary to show your wall has been properly designed. Of course, all of this was complicated by the fact that permits for ?temporary walls? were given. However, even with that complication, a qualified engineer should have known what the Florida laws were and applied them if these seawalls were to become permanent. In my opinion, given the fact they have to do it to permit a permanent wall, a qualified engineer shouldn?t be telling you they can?t define what storm conditions they?ve designed for just because Acts of God aren?t insured.

The hydrodynamic forces during a storm will likely be many times greater than the static forces for which a retaining wall is designed. Let?s say a retaining wall is designed to hold back 15 ft of water. Take that 15 ft of water and apply it to the gulf side of the wall and give it a speed of 40 to 50 mph and then apply this force every thirty seconds or so over the course of a few hours. If the wall is overtopped, then determine the force of the overtopping water rushing back to the gulf in between waves. While doing this, consider that the sand on at least the gulf side of the wall is eroded away within minutes and the anchors tying the wall back are being loosened by the battering waves. Those are the dynamic forces I see happening and retaining walls likely won?t survive these conditions because they are not designed to.

 

[BlueMtnBeachVagrant]

back home now - great trip and lots o fish n/w choc bay and the edges and holes of west west bay probably due to the s/e wind - small grouper (the brown lure ones) around the bridge pilings if you don't get shot



SIA (sorry in advance), but you can always tell when an area is being overdeveloped when the number of realtors outnumbers the politicians

like killer bees into Georgia, the influx of those who build long strings of rental properties and hotels will inevitably occur, either gradually or in spurts (I think we're in one of those habitat decline spurts now) - bubbles grow and pop then grow again - things will settle down once the reasonable property is all built on and the only way to go is up (vertical land), which probably is about where it is heading now

like the date palms and the bouganviellia (?), no property in northwest florida is really native, and walls to stabilize slumping cliffs to hold up houses built on instability itself shall both pass into the night before long

the spring breakers are trampling the dunes, and polluting the water with trash, puke and wee, and they too will be gone soon

then the vacationers will show up for a hectic week of being too busy trying to fit it all in that they can't relax for even one second

all of them drive cars that belch poison gasses, and the poison plane will continue to rain death upon the beach a'la the horror, the horror

about a thousand people will probably end up getting a sunburn during their florida trip that will lead to skin cancer later in their lives

some will even die either getting there or going home or choking on seared ahi at some overcrowded resturant where they waited an hour in line just to get the tuna that killed them

and you guys are worried about some puny retaining walls and slumping dune-built houses, calculatingly not built to withstand hurricane force winds using previous storm statistics to determine the possible chance it would sustain a direct hit! HA! the bluffs were there long before man was, indication a statistical probablility that currents, greed and take would happen

there are still a few undisturbed wild places remaining here and there if you know how to look for them, but their edges are shrinking and the wildlife in them has no place left to go, and the developers are sniffing around them if they can get some sucker to pony up the captial

build and shore up what you will, it will all be only a stain on the beach in a few short years time

get rid of all the people

Thanks for the fishing report. Not sure what that has to retaining walls.

As I said the other day, I slit my wrists because of one poster's comments. Well I can't even do that right (so take heart!!)...I'm still here. Now it looks, based on your POST above, that EVERYBODY should exit, stage left and leave this world behind.

Again NO real substance to thread itself in this message.


I was also boating on the bay watching dolphins and such yesterday as well and just loving it. For the most part I leave the fishing to you guys (I let my license expire last month since I don't fish that much) Maybe you and I can find common ground as you probably are a nice guy, just a little misguided. We all are to degree or another. Perhaps I can teach you about our retaining wall and you can teach me how to fish.

But look out...we'll have all kind of fish huggers coming out of wood work and you'll have to join me in defending our right to fish.

 

[BlueMtnBeachVagrant]

You left out the red tide that will result from the steel seawalls.:roll:

Smiling Joe,

You're not smiling any more!! What happened? I see the face of a sad dog. I hope it's not because of the idiotic posts from some of the people who just can't see 2 sides to any issue.

I love dogs, BTW and therefore like your knew icon (yet another hint to my friends as to my exact identity - one friend has figured it out already).

Funny that you mentioned steel walls as I just posted the normal materials that are used on the beach for retaining walls.

Here's an honest story...
I spoke with one of the GF owners about what type of wall they were putting in. He told me he was going with the really thick vinyl. I asked, "Did you consider composite." He sort of laughed at me, went in his garage and pulled out a sample of the composite wall (which is only 1/4" thick) and a sample of the vinyl wall (which is about 1" thick or so)...visibly a BIG difference in other words.

He insinuated that the vinyl was stronger than the composite and that's why he was going to use it. There is no question in my mind that the composite material is stronger based on respective manufacturer's specifications.

AND NOW THE REST OF STORY....
What material did he end up with as his main front wall?

Steel. Go figure.

In a corrosive salt environment the steel will fail over time unless constantly maintained (painted and/or completely covered with sand to hel shield it). I will admit the steel will stay there until it does. So in about 20-30 years (just a guess), the steel wall will probably disintegrate. Much longer than the remaining life span of many GF owners. (Don't anyone take any easy shots at the last statement, please!)

What's the point? As everyone can see, even GF owners obviously disagree as to what material a retaining wall should be made of.

EVERYONE....PLEASE LOOK AT THE VERY FIRST POST OF THIS MESSAGE THREAD AGAIN. "Blake", the initiator, innocently made an observation regarding all the different retaining walls be erected and posted a few pictures to back up his observation. Of course this thread has morphed itself into everything else like most threads do.

But Smiling Joe, it's nice to know some people "steel" stick to the topic !!

 

[Smiling JOe]

No sad dogs in my house. Sadness and happiness is in the eyes of the beholder, and my dogs are always smiling, unless you try to break into my house, and then it is no-holds-barred.

 

[SHELLY]

BMBV:

Three things:

(1) I'm not a realtor. <At least the last time I looked I didn't have a leased BMW in the driveway and a string of pre-construction contracts in my portfolio> My interest in RE is purely for entertainment (and certainly not for investment) purposes.

(2) Despite the fact that I'm saddened over how the "Real Estate Free-for-All Money Grab" left our state and its coastline in ruins and I have an insatiable fascination with the financial train wreck we call the U.S. economy, all-in-all, I'm very content... and I prefer not to view life through a Zoloft-induced haze that makes everything "Okie Dokie" with the world. (I suspect many of the problems the US is experiencing now are because a huge majority of our politicos and government officials are Pfizer Platinum Customers. "Problems? What problems?)

(3) You've got spunk...I like your banter and I understand your situation.

 

[thumper]

BMBV, it's been an interesting discussion. I appreciate your viewpoints, and your attempts at education where you deem necessary. However, as a lurker and outside observer, these impressions come across:

1. Calling others "Lightweights" who oppose your view, with fewer, shorter, or less impressive words. Foul! Purposefully or not, the inference comes across that you consider yourself a heavyweight. (which begs the question: by virtue of what?) To pull rank for whatever reason diminishes your case in point. Better perhaps to let the facts speak for themselves.

2. Saying in your first post that "we" are the government, (paraphrasing), and then saying in a later post that if we have a problem to take it up with our elected officials (paraphrasing), not those who would follow the rules. If we are the gov't (yes, we are), then let's face it, we all need to act in our best conscious for the generations to come, painful as that path may be at times. The beach is all of ours, not just gulf front owners. Seawalls are by all admissions a temporary solution, and statistically speaking, ultimately result in permanent erosion of the beach berm. And for what? To save a house that--by your admission-- would not survive the storm for which the wall was built in the first place? Your house may not survive, but the wall will. No house for you, no beach for everyone. Take one giant step back: Where's the logic?

That said, I completely appreciate your position of fiduciary responsibility. And I do understand your frustration at being painted in a negative light, when you are doing what you consider to be the best solution for you. The research you have put in is impressive. Put in your shoes I might consider doing the same--I'd have no choice but to consider putting up a sea wall. But first, I'd see if I could feasibly move my house further from the dune--an environmentally conscious solution. Second, I'd look into the option of pooling your wall money with other wall builders and fund renourishment of the beach instead. (This topic begs another tangent: why are GF owners so reticent to have public land in front of theirs? That's a disgusting level of greed that thankfully you have not demonstrated. But back to topic.) In other words, why not use your considerable skills to help organize and enact a long term solution that leaves a positive legacy? Me personally? I'd have to sell my GF house before I could put up a seawall...I could not stomach the thought that I might be contributing to the ultiamte loss of what I consider to be the most beautiful American beach. But I am a lightweight.

3. Ecopal came off as very reasonable, and your repeated attacks on him/her came off as defensive and petty. His/her questions were valid and on the minds of most of us. Why not address them (calmly, and without caps)?

I don't envy the position you're in. Once again, I appreciate --very much-- your posts. Lengthy and defensive as they often are, there's a lot of information contained within, and it's jumpstarted an intelligent debate.