Seawalls

[Smiling JOe]

As a result we have spent approximately $600,000 for just the wall itself (yet another identity hint). I stuck out my neck with my own money and my own reputation (that's called putting your money where your mouth is).

I knew the wall were pricey and the sand even more so. However, I it had not occured to me until just now, but after reading your post, I wonder how you spending, maybe $800,000 idontno: )on protecting your property will effect its market value? Will it make it more likely to sell if listed? Probably. Will a buyer be more willing to fork out the additional $800K for a property which still may not get knocked out by another storm? If a storm hits, is it likely to lose $100K worth of sand? Insurance tough to get, if at all? I really wonder if the property is over-improved, at least for the near term. From the words you write, it doesn't sound like you are a short-term person anyway, so these questions probably will not affect you, but it makes me wonder about other GF properties too. Would they be better off financially just selling (if there was a buyer looking), rather than improving the property?

 

[TooFarTampa]

I knew the wall were pricey and the sand even more so. However, I it had not occured to me until just now, but after reading your post, I wonder how you spending, maybe $800,000 idontno: )on protecting your property will effect its market value? Will it make it more likely to sell if listed? Probably. Will a buyer be more willing to fork out the additional $800K for a property which still may not get knocked out by another storm? If a storm hits, is it likely to lose $100K worth of sand? Insurance tough to get, if at all? I really wonder if the property is over-improved, at least for the near term. From the words you write, it doesn't sound like you are a short-term person anyway, so these questions probably will not affect you, but it makes me wonder about other GF properties too. Would they be better off financially just selling (if there was a buyer looking), rather than improving the property?

Interesting questions SJ. I have more.

And BMBV, I am in no way attacking you our your decisions -- just to be clear! -- but I'm wondering in general what is the value in these pre-1985 structures? Why armor at all? It seems like a 600K gamble, albeit in your case a well-researched gamble. Maybe I am missing something, but wouldn't it be logical in many (most?) cases to just use fill sand where the land has eroded, keep the building insured, and if the building and land are washed away by the next storm, rebuild as far back as possible to the newest building codes?

My new insurance policy for our primary residence has a clause where I can pay a higher premium to get 50 percent more money in the event of a total loss, just so I could rebuild to meet the new building codes. Since it is a new state law I assume that option would be available to gulf front owners as well.

When I have peeked at the property appraisers' website it always looks to me like the GF lots are very long and narrow. I'm sure altering or waiving the setback requirements so GF owners could build farther back would not be an issue. So why risk the health of the beach? I'm not saying you, BMBV. I'm saying why is the state allowing the seawalls at all? Or is it likely that many gulf front owners in your situation just would not have enough depth to their property if they had to rebuild?

In North Carolina's outer banks, which are subject to severe erosion, homeowners are not permitted to build seawalls or retaining walls period. They are expected to move their houses back as needed, and in some cases they may lose their property entirely. Obviously it is a different situation (Atlantic vs. Gulf, narrow barrier islands vs. high bluffs) but it is interesting. The culture is different. The risks have always been part of the discussion. As a relatively newly developed area, 30-A hasn't had years and years to hammer out these issues. I appreciate discussions like this because they help advance the dialogue, because it's clear that as a whole the solution has not been reached yet.

 

[John R]

Cross fire is hell!!

beachvagrant, what started out as you defending your position quite clearly, has digressed to meanspirited, petty, rhetoric. like your detractors, you are now just spewing the same stuff, repeatedly. and, it seems, throwing in attacks whenever you can. the high horse seems to be getting taller. maybe time to back away from the keyboard for a while?

 

[BlueMtnBeachVagrant]

Hi pgurney:

M.E. from Ga Tech?

I'll try and be more open minded about the other 99%

Regarding your comment about not being a fan of seawalls...
Here's another honest story. Another owner wanted to put a retaining wall just before Ivan hit us a couple of years ago. He already had experience with retaining walls with his GF property in Miramar. I and the other homeowners basically blew him off as an alarmist. I was really against the idea as I couldn't imagine a retaining wall on our beautiful beach, the reason I bought here in the first place. So I can imagine exactly how everyone who is not a GF owner feels about retaining walls.

After Ivan, my eyes were opened, even though the bluff was eroded back just past the point when when Opal hit (just a few feet from the building). In other words, I should have expected the subsequent damage from Ivan based on Opal's damage.

Our beach has been so severly weakened from the back to back storms, that Dennis took another 15 to 20 feet past the erosion point of Ivan. Actually eroded to under the building. This amount of loss from just "minor" hurricane took everyone, including the county and state by complete surprise.

It was not a fun decision to have to make. Plus it costs us a considerable amount. So as you see, one's attitude can really change based on circumstances. I believe you do understand. I'm not asking you to agree however as long as you don't "bash" the other GF owners for their decision....which of course you haven't. I believe all of "us" truly appreciate that.

I'm still looking into the 15 year and 30 year thing that you refered to. I'll hold off comment on that until I understand more. I appreciate your looking that I up.

Regarding 30 to 50 knot waves. I can't honestly deny that those occur depending on storm fury, wave heights and the sea floor topo. I guess what I do know is this...
Thanks to a neighbor who video taped a significant portion of Hurricne Dennis, I saw first hand the intensity (or lack of in this case) of the waves as they destroyed the dunes and destroyed our walkover as well as others. The waves continued to eat the bottom of the dune eventually turning it to a vertical bluff. But the waves were not traveling very much faster than you see in on a rough day or tropical storm.

Again I'm not denying waves can travel fast and exert tremendous forces. But what I saw was that ordinary waves from Dennis destroyed our property, not the high speed waves that you might expect considering the damage.

I normally wouldn't do this, but, since you won the "BMBV I'm No Antagonistic Dummy" Award , I'll send you a copy of the video and you can judge for yourself... but ONLY if you agree to post your true opinion based on your observations of the video. That way people here will see you sort of a "neutral" observer who definitely is qualified to "opinionate" your ideas with some authority.

Fair Enough????

Regarding the rest of you post, I am still digesting it and, so far, do understand and agree.

Please send me a private email with your address, and I'll send you the CD. The video is too large to email.

Thanks!!!!

 

[BlueMtnBeachVagrant]

I knew the wall were pricey and the sand even more so. However, I it had not occured to me until just now, but after reading your post, I wonder how you spending, maybe $800,000 idontno: )on protecting your property will effect its market value? Will it make it more likely to sell if listed? Probably. Will a buyer be more willing to fork out the additional $800K for a property which still may not get knocked out by another storm? If a storm hits, is it likely to lose $100K worth of sand? Insurance tough to get, if at all? I really wonder if the property is over-improved, at least for the near term. From the words you write, it doesn't sound like you are a short-term person anyway, so these questions probably will not affect you, but it makes me wonder about other GF properties too. Would they be better off financially just selling (if there was a buyer looking), rather than improving the property?

Please let me clarify something... The amount I was talking about was shared by several home owners. I didn't pay $800,000. If I did, I'd have to triple my dose of zoloft. My portion for one property was much less than that.

Will the new wall affect market value? I remember a comment I made to a couple of hold outs in my smaller condo building months ago when I was trying to convince them to go along with the wall....

Basically I (and just about everyone else in BMB) use to think that because of our elevation, we were "safe" from storm surges and wave action. Well that was true until our bluff disappeared. Now of course we look at our elevation as being a handicap because as the erosion takes place, 26 feet down to sea level is a long way (in our area, more in other areas), even if your home is built on pilings....not a very desirable place to be at that point.

So will a buyer of a property fork out the "relatively" small premium for the wall? Cost won't be an issue as it is "absorbed" into the relatively high prices of GF properties. <>

But to finish the above story, if one doesn't have a retaining wall in our area, they will not be able to EASILY sell their property.

"How many bedrooms and baths does it have?"
"Does it have central A/C?"
"Does it have a garage?"

All these are typical questions asked by potential buyers of a property. But I assure you that in our area, as buyers become more tuned to our situation, the next typical question from a buyer of GF property will be....

"Does it have a retaining wall? If so what kind and who installed it?"

In summary, I believe we have come full circle. That is I believe that our elevation is now a blessing again especially now that at least I and my neighbors have a well constructed retaining wall. A direct hit from a cat 3 hurricane will test this soon enough, unfortunately.

Sand....
I believe in a typical hurricane that we will lose little to no sand behind the wall. In front of the wall is obviously another story. It's gone. But it's a lot less sand lost in front of the wall than if there were no wall at all...easily double if not triple the amount of sand. That's a lot of sand and a lot of dump trucks.

Is the property over-improved? Not really... now that you see I didn't spend $800,000 out of my own pocket

Regarding insurance...
I'm not sure where we'll end up or how the wall will affect insurance rates.

Did you know my mortgage did not require me to have flood insurance for one of our beach properties? It's because of our elevation. I initially didn't want it as I just couldn't perceive of a storm surge being that high. After I learned from a property manager, that we should consider flood insurance because it is the flood policy that cover's erosion due to storm surge and the resulting damage. Needless to say I got it right away.

This insurance thing is going to affect ALL of us, some more than others.

Smiling Joe, why don't you moderate a thread that discusses nothing but insurance...rates, coverage changes, claims, etc.? Just like I told Shelly, this would be greatly appreciated by ALL property owners in our area. We, as consumers, derive strength from knowledge. There's no excuse for "us" not to take advantage of the forums that we can take part of.

Thanks Smiling Joe !!

 

[BlueMtnBeachVagrant]

Interesting questions SJ. I have more.

And BMBV, I am in no way attacking you our your decisions -- just to be clear! -- but I'm wondering in general what is the value in these pre-1985 structures? Why armor at all? It seems like a 600K gamble, albeit in your case a well-researched gamble. Maybe I am missing something, but wouldn't it be logical in many (most?) cases to just use fill sand where the land has eroded, keep the building insured, and if the building and land are washed away by the next storm, rebuild as far back as possible to the newest building codes?

My new insurance policy for our primary residence has a clause where I can pay a higher premium to get 50 percent more money in the event of a total loss, just so I could rebuild to meet the new building codes. Since it is a new state law I assume that option would be available to gulf front owners as well.

When I have peeked at the property appraisers' website it always looks to me like the GF lots are very long and narrow. I'm sure altering or waiving the setback requirements so GF owners could build farther back would not be an issue. So why risk the health of the beach? I'm not saying you, BMBV. I'm saying why is the state allowing the seawalls at all? Or is it likely that many gulf front owners in your situation just would not have enough depth to their property if they had to rebuild?

In North Carolina's outer banks, which are subject to severe erosion, homeowners are not permitted to build seawalls or retaining walls period. They are expected to move their houses back as needed, and in some cases they may lose their property entirely. Obviously it is a different situation (Atlantic vs. Gulf, narrow barrier islands vs. high bluffs) but it is interesting. The culture is different. The risks have always been part of the discussion. As a relatively newly developed area, 30-A hasn't had years and years to hammer out these issues. I appreciate discussions like this because they help advance the dialogue, because it's clear that as a whole the solution has not been reached yet.

No one wants to totally depend on insurance for replacing their structure if it were to collapse. Here's what happened to my "main" property in the last 10 years...

Opal hits (before I bought in). Luckily for the previous owners the county scraped enough sand to restore the dunes to a decent condition. The property built a "semi" retaining wall to help hold up the yard (no seawall qualities at all).

Ivan hits.
"Semi" retaining wall disappears. County scraped some sand but I personally forked out around $10,000 for sand. No retaining wall built. So far so good until...

Tropical storm Arlene? and Dennis hits.
Now I have spent around $20,000 for sand. The retaining wall itself will cost me another $35,000 after all is said and done.

I have had lots of down time which in itself is very expensive. I have spent countless hours researching and coordinating efforts for myself as well as many of my neighbors in adjacent condos and homes. My "TOTAL" cost is indeed very high relatively.

The problem in my situation is that I cannot single handedly tell everyone else to voluntarily redevelop (and we could). It is tough, because it requires cash flow. Yes a new building will be worth more than what we put in it because of the value of our land, but that doesn't mean that everyone can continue to afford their unit if it were to be a new building (cash flow wise).

Regarding insurance...
Simply speaking, if your building is damaged less than 50% of its value (structure only), then the insurance can and usually will opt to repair your building rather than replace it for obvious reasons. There are other rules like accumulated damage in a time period, etc. In the meantime, you are out of business for a considerable period of time (as we were) even if the damage is relatively small. As many of you know, things don't move fast in Walton County regarding contracting (except for new homes it seems ) . So a piddly hurricane like Dennis put us out of business, basically for 8 months so far. (But we're getting there.)

Insurance WILL NOT COVER the cost of sand beyond the "eave line" of your building. I'm still trying to figure how to stack sand grains vertically in order to save money by not having the slope of sand past the building

Totally depending on insurance in our situation is not a great choice. Can't you feeeeil my pain so far??

What happens if FEMA decides not to generally provide coverage for a collapsed building due to erosion? Not probable but I don't want to find out if I have a choice between that and building a retaining wall. The retaining wall is now my insurance. I'm seriously considering cancelling flood coverage once again.

You said "Obviously it is a different situation (Atlantic vs. Gulf, narrow barrier islands vs. high bluffs) but it is interesting."
I am so so glad to see you differentiate the situation at barrier islands from our situation!! :clap_1:

I'm just not sure it's that obvious to others on this thread as they have compared our future demise to the likes of Galveston, Navarre Beach and Fripp Island, all of which are barrier islands. Bravo for you!

Thanks for a GREAT POST !!!

 

[BlueMtnBeachVagrant]

beachvagrant, what started out as you defending your position quite clearly, has digressed to meanspirited, petty, rhetoric. like your detractors, you are now just spewing the same stuff, repeatedly. and, it seems, throwing in attacks whenever you can. the high horse seems to be getting taller. maybe time to back away from the keyboard for a while?

A voice on my shoulder tells me that I should not continue with my reply. I know I know, everyone is whincing....well.......

Bite ME!!!! Get it??? :rofl:

There's another "attack" I threw in when I could !! :funn:

You used my response to Katie Blue to jump in with your post above.

So here's KatieBlu's post for everyone to see since you didn't include it...
Originally Posted by katie blue:
"<edited out because I just need to bite my lip instead...>"

Just a little humor. At least it's funny to me. I can sometimes be self serving.

My "high horse" wants to know....
What's your problem? I thought we were starting to have a decent dialogue here as people got to know me. If you can't contribute anything constructive to this thread, stay the hell off!!

Now it's time for a sprinkle of "mean-spirited" facts...
I won't kiss anybody's rear end who spouts bull**** (sorry, no other word comes to mind) such as you have done above. You deserve this response.

Top it with a "petty" observation...
It's people like you that obligated me to come to the defense of me and my neghbor's character and actions in the first place.

You, my friend, could have simply left it alone and the creme would have risen. But you seem to be threatened that perhaps, just perhaps, logical discussion might prevail here. So you take another REALLY CHEAP shot.

"psssst..." (voice from my shoulder)
"What now?" I say.
"Ok I'll tell John R." I say.

I was told that you took SEVERAL CHEAP SHOTS, not just one REALLY CHEAP SHOT and that you missed by a country mile with all of them.

Oh yea.....
I'm not really that mean of person as to say the following to my "detractors"....
"like your detractors, you are now just spewing the same stuff, repeatedly. and, it seems, throwing in attacks whenever you can. the high horse seems to be getting taller."...you're obviously talking about yourself, "The Master Detractor". Kind of rhymes doesn't it? I try to give all detractors a chance to base their post on reason, not emotion.

I am guilty of at least one major flaw....
I won't take any bull**** from simple simons like you. You didn't just step in the "crossfire", you went out there and waved a red flag and started screaming, "shoot me, shoot me!"

Just for the record, John R, was there ANYTHING constructive in your well thought out post that I might have missed?

By the way, change that under-aged little girl beer drinker icon link, PLEASE. That's what truly is getting old more so than the content of your post.

I'm going to feel real real bad if I find out from somebody that I just slammed a cute 16 year old kid.

My appologies to everyone else.

Night night.

 

[Kurt]

Please - no personal attacks. There is no need for name calling.

Thanks ;-)

 

[Dave Rauschkolb]

I heard the state is going to come down hard on beachfront homeowners and the county because of the seawalls. Like, make them remove them. Anyone hear the same?

 

[Dave Rauschkolb]

Study on affects of Seawalls

http://images.google.com/imgres?img...art=5&prev=/images?q=seawalls&svnum=10&hl=en%