Seawalls

[Smiling JOe]

Second, I'd look into the option of pooling your wall money with other wall builders and fund renourishment of the beach instead. (This topic begs another tangent: why are GF owners so reticent to have public land in front of theirs? That's a disgusting level of greed that thankfully you have not demonstrated.

According to Brad Pickle, to date, there are only three GF property owners who are fighting beach nourishment in SoWal, and they are doing so because they don't want people stopping between their property and the water's edge (the reason you state). ;-)

 

[BlueMtnBeachVagrant]

BMBV,

There are generally two different types of walls in this situation: 1) retaining walls that are designed only to hold back soil/sand and 2) seawalls that are designed to hold back the sand/soil and withstand the forces of battering waves, scour and wave overtopping of the wall.

It is my understanding that, in Florida, for an owner to get a permit to build an armoring type of structure on their coastal property the structure must be designed as a seawall, not a retaining wall. The permit application must (in most situations) be accompanied by a report prepared by a qualified Professional Engineer registered in the State of Florida that shows the wall is designed to survive and be stable under the 30-year return storm conditions, that the top elevation of the seawall is higher than the combination of the highest surge plus the crest of the highest breaking wave, that the wall will not cause flooding or adverse impacts to upland property, the design must consider the 30-year erosion line and the design must consider both static and dynamic forces under these storm conditions.

I would hope that if the engineer was qualified and did their job that report would define for you and the state DEP what the 30-year storm conditions are, the 30-year erosion line is and provide the calculations necessary to show your wall has been properly designed. Of course, all of this was complicated by the fact that permits for temporary walls were given. However, even with that complication, a qualified engineer should have known what the Florida laws were and applied them if these seawalls were to become permanent. In my opinion, given the fact they have to do it to permit a permanent wall, a qualified engineer shouldnt be telling you they cant define what storm conditions theyve designed for just because Acts of God arent insured.

The hydrodynamic forces during a storm will likely be many times greater than the static forces for which a retaining wall is designed. Lets say a retaining wall is designed to hold back 15 ft of water. Take that 15 ft of water and apply it to the gulf side of the wall and give it a speed of 40 to 50 mph and then apply this force every thirty seconds or so over the course of a few hours. If the wall is overtopped, then determine the force of the overtopping water rushing back to the gulf in between waves. While doing this, consider that the sand on at least the gulf side of the wall is eroded away within minutes and the anchors tying the wall back are being loosened by the battering waves. Those are the dynamic forces I see happening and retaining walls likely wont survive these conditions because they are not designed to.

What the hell??

Did I just see a bright shining light??

Is it possible??

Am I still dreaming of talking dolphins??

Was I in the sun too long, myself, yesterday while on the bay??


You DEFINITELY win the coveted "BMBV I'm No Antagonistic Dummy" award for the most complete and comprehensive post regarding retaining walls that I've witnessed yet. I had asked you to take time to reply, and you did (and I know how long it takes to compose a half decent post).

Sincerely, thank you very much!!

One favor... you know my situation. What is your background and how did you become that familiar with the "retaining wall" vs "seawall" terminology, etc.? Most people don't know the difference. And I have yet to point it out(but I almost did yesterday but fell asleep at the wheel ... I mean keyboard).

I knew when you asked about "hydrodynamic" forces in your previous post that you had a better handle on what's going on more than 99% of the other posters on this message thread.

Therefore, you and I are going in the ring. Problem is, we're probably in the same corner, since you and I (so far) are just trying to exchange factual information and ideas also backed up with factual information.

I'm doing a little a research (DEP's pdf document) as I respond back to you because (to everyone's surprise), I don't know everything there is to know about beach armoring. If my research is wrong, please correct me with your source and we'll go from there.

from pgurney: "It is my understanding that, in Florida, for an owner to get a permit to build an armoring type of structure on their coastal property the structure must be designed as a seawall, not a retaining wall."

What is the definition of "armoring"?? From DEP (again, http://www.dep.state.fl.us/beaches/publications/pdf/62b-33.pdf)...
Armoring is a manmade structure designed to either prevent erosion of the upland property or protect eligible structures from the effects of coastal wave and current action. Armoring includes certain rigid coastal structures such as geotextile bags or tubes, seawalls, revetments, bulkheads, retaining walls, or similar structures but does not include jetties, groins, or other construction whose purpose is to add sand to the beach and dune system, alter the natural coastal currents, or stabilize the mouths of inlets.

from pgurney: "The permit application must (in most situations) be accompanied by a report prepared by a qualified Professional Engineer registered in the State of Florida that shows the wall is designed to survive and be stable under the 30-year return storm conditions, that the top elevation of the seawall is higher than the combination of the highest surge plus the crest of the highest breaking wave, that the wall will not cause flooding or adverse impacts to upland property, the design must consider the 30-year erosion line and the design must consider both static and dynamic forces under these storm conditions."

We all know we have to have a "qualified Professional Engineer". But I have searched the DEP's pdf document regarding your statement about 30-year "return storm conditions". I found 19 instances of "30-year", all of them referring to the erosion line which is the water line itself. I searched for every combination of the words "return storm conditions". Nothing found. If you find a reference, PLEASE do share it with me as I will force our engineer to provide documentation to this effect if required. Is there another document that you are referring to that I'm unaware of that "dictates" armoring design? Because honestly, I don't see that kind of detail in DEP's pdf document. There are just too many types of armoring and materials that they permit.

from pgurney: "The hydrodynamic forces during a storm will likely be many times greater than the static forces for which a retaining wall is designed. Lets say a retaining wall is designed to hold back 15 ft of water. Take that 15 ft of water and apply it to the gulf side of the wall and give it a speed of 40 to 50 mph and then apply this force every thirty seconds or so over the course of a few hours. If the wall is overtopped, then determine the force of the overtopping water rushing back to the gulf in between waves. While doing this, consider that the sand on at least the gulf side of the wall is eroded away within minutes and the anchors tying the wall back are being loosened by the battering waves. Those are the dynamic forces I see happening and retaining walls likely wont survive these conditions because they are not designed to."

I'm not sure I quite agree with your visualization of 40 or 50 mile an hour water hitting the wall, but I won't discredit your point, which is a good one. I had the same concerns and voiced this to our original engineer.

Now, let's talk about about hydrodynamic forces.

You are absolutely correct that waves will incessantly batter the wall during a strong enough hurricane. There are great pressures exerted by the inertia of traveling waves. On thing that gives me great comfort regarding this, is that our wall and basically ALL walls are back filled with sand. Once sand is packed down over the course (under its own weight and assisted with rain) of just a few weeks, it becomes very incompressible.

Now when the water hits the wall, there is basically little to no deflection of the wall itself because of the back pressure of the sand. So far so good.

from pgurney: "If the wall is overtopped, then determine the force of the overtopping water rushing back to the gulf in between waves."

I don't believe this is any significant amount, "hydrodynamically" speaking. Why? Because if the wall is topped by waves, then yes we'll get some sand loss due to scouring on the top... probaby 2,3,4 maybe 5 feet. The wall itself and all the anchors will still be intact. As the water rushes back, it simply goes OVER the wall. I'm sure we can split hairs here, but I think you see what I'm talking about. I don't think it will catch the water like a sail because it most likely will be filled with water to the top anyway. Heck I'll give another 20% load factor due to this effect (if it even exists - see later for calculated loads).

Important!!......
This worse case scenario load then becomes the combined weight of ALL the sand and ALL the water behind the wall just "itching" to get out. This is around 110 to 120 pounds per cubic foot. Also assume it's completely fluid (no help from the "stickiness" of the sand to hold itself up and take load off the wall) which I've been told by one engineer is not exactly the case. But what the hell, I'm a worse case kind of guy when it comes to loading and design.

It now becomes a SIMPLE statics exercise (as opposed to dynamics). Simply take the integral of the pressure up the entire wall. Assume the bottom of the wall (part below sealevel) is holding back half the pressure. The rest of the pressure is distributed to the anchoring system depending on their position and their angle.

Not really that difficult for an engineer.

That's why I designed a little calculator and plugged in these values...

Density of Wet Sand 120 Pounds/cubic foot
Height of Wall (h) 18 Feet
Tieback Spacing 6 Feet Apart
Tieback Angle 15 Degrees from Horizontal
Tieback Distance from Top of Wall 3 Feet Distance from top of wall to where the tieback cable is attached


TIEBACK FORCE = 48,301.85 Pounds (per tieback)

Notice the example above (which is effectively our wall) only has one row of tiebacks (helical screw anchors). BUT our wall has two walers! This means that there are actually 2 anchors for every 6 feet which significantly reduces the load per anchor.

With me so far? HERE's the MEAT of MATTER... Each of our anchors are rated at 65,000 pounds WORKING LOAD. The holding power IS IMMEDIATELY KNOWN after installation based on the final torque that was achieved during installation. Not much unknown stuff here.

Contrast this to a wood wall I've studied down the beach... it has ONE row of anchor cables tied to pilings (I use that term loosely because they look like toothpicks in comparison to the front pilings and are not driven that far down), and they are spaced 9 feet apart (the wall is effectively the same height as ours). There is a "secondary wall" (term used loosely) that spans the back piling anchors they used that supposedly acts as a deadman.

So simplistically speaking, our wall has 3 (super strong) anchors every nine feet, their's have just 1 (questionable to say the least) plus the supposed affect of the deadman wall. Again quality (even if it was correctly designed) in their wall is suspect to say the least. In other words did the owners get what they paid for?

Synopsis

Maybe you and others can understand more clearly why I say our wall will hold up where others won't. If the wood contractor is sued, he can hide behind the fact that it was built as a temporary retaining wall and not a permanent retaining retaining wall that has the strength of a seawall.

This wall (and walls like it) will fail first. Fact, not fiction.


SOOOOOOOOO..............................
If there's anyone out there who still continues to lump our wall with the crap walls that are out there, I'm not quite sure what else to say to convince them other than they just don't understand fact.

One other thing, don't assume all composite walls will hold up. Some of you in area may have seen a joke of a composite wall getting started in BMB east of the 83 public access.

It just shows you that EVERYTHING has to come together for a wall to be successful....material strength, wall design AND quality of installation.

pgurney, if you can share any more information about where you think there is a requirement for the engineer to specify the "rating" of the wall in terms of hurricane category or the like, PLEASE PLEASE let me know.

This can only help us in our ordeal and would be much appreciated.

With MUCH Thanks!!!!!
Sincerely,
BMBV

 

[BlueMtnBeachVagrant]

No sad dogs in my house. Sadness and happiness is in the eyes of the beholder, and my dogs are always smiling, unless you try to break into my house, and then it is no-holds-barred.

I was simply contrasting the icon with your great big similing frog with great big teeth. Or is that the face of a frog who's ready to bite my head off. I guess that's also in the eye of the beholder. ;-)

See?... we share something in common, smiling dogs. Let's find more.

 

[BlueMtnBeachVagrant]

BMBV:

Three things:

(1) I'm not a realtor. <At least the last time I looked I didn't have a leased BMW in the driveway and a string of pre-construction contracts in my portfolio> My interest in RE is purely for entertainment (and certainly not for investment) purposes.

(2) Despite the fact that I'm saddened over how the "Real Estate Free-for-All Money Grab" left our state and its coastline in ruins and I have an insatiable fascination with the financial train wreck we call the U.S. economy, all-in-all, I'm very content... and I prefer not to view life through a Zoloft-induced haze that makes everything "Okie Dokie" with the world. (I suspect many of the problems the US is experiencing now are because a huge majority of our politicos and government officials are Pfizer Platinum Customers. "Problems? What problems?)

(3) You've got spunk...I like your banter and I understand your situation.

wwwhhhhaat d i i ii d yuuuuuu saaaaaay?

Spit spit (sound of my zoloft going down the drain).

Thanks Shelly.

Why don't you start and more or less moderate a thread on the subjects such as developers, land grab, etc.? I and I'm sure others would love to vent out there as well. Maybe there is already one. I do see similar posts scattered about, including here. BUT it might prove to be real interesting if you started one and created some "posting rules" like keeping zoloft and sad dogs out of the conversation. :clap_1:

Go for it!! Really!

Thanks again.

 

[katie blue]

<edited out because I just need to bite my lip instead...>

 

[pgurney]

Geez, I hope I get this QUOTE thing right.

One favor... you know my situation. What is your background and how did you become that familiar with the "retaining wall" vs "seawall" terminology, etc.? Most people don't know the difference. And I have yet to point it out(but I almost did yesterday but fell asleep at the wheel ... I mean keyboard).

I am a mechanical engineer, licensed in the State of Georgia, and one of my specialties is hydraulics. I?m very familiar with the concepts and use of statics vs. dynamics, however I have never designed a seawall. Even if I were licensed in the State of Florida, I would not be qualified to design one. Please don?t construe anything in my post to be engineering advice, just my opinion.

I knew when you asked about "hydrodynamic" forces in your previous post that you had a better handle on what's going on more than 99% of the other posters on this message thread.

Please don?t underestimate the other 99%. There are some smart folks (and funn ones too!) on this board and they have made some very valid points here. I should also state that I?m not a fan of seawalls for the long term, however if I were in your shoes I?m not sure what I would do. It could be that I?d take your same path.

We all know we have to have a "qualified Professional Engineer". But I have searched the DEP's pdf document regarding your statement about 30-year "return storm conditions". I found 19 instances of "30-year", all of them referring to the erosion line which is the water line itself. I searched for every combination of the words "return storm conditions". Nothing found. If you find a reference, PLEASE do share it with me as I will force our engineer to provide documentation to this effect if required. Is there another document that you are referring to that I'm unaware of that "dictates" armoring design? Because honestly, I don't see that kind of detail in DEP's pdf document. There are just too many types of armoring and materials that they permit.

See Rule 62B-33.0051 FAC. http://www.dep.state.fl.us/beaches/publications/pdf/62b-33.pdf In looking back through it I see references to both a 15-year and a 30-year design storm. I haven?t done enough research into this to tell you which one, if either, applies. Your engineer should know. Your engineer should also be able to tell you what a 15-year or 30-year design storm is ? I couldn?t find that information anywhere, but it should be defined somewhere.

I'm not sure I quite agree with your visualization of 40 or 50 mile an hour water hitting the wall, but I won't discredit your point, which is a good one. I had the same concerns and voiced this to our original engineer.

That was not a visualization. ?large waves move 30 - 50 knots and more. Tsunamis, which are the largest waves of all, can reach speeds up to 450 knots.? http://www.oceansonline.com/waves.htm

Once sand is packed down over the course (under its own weight and assisted with rain) of just a few weeks, it becomes very incompressible.

This is only if it is loaded evenly AND has no place to escape. If there is overtopping and scour behind the wall, it will become compressible. The repetitive loading and water from the waves could help liquefy the sand.

from pgurney: "If the wall is overtopped, then determine the force of the overtopping water rushing back to the gulf in between waves."

I don't believe this is any significant amount, "hydrodynamically" speaking. Why? Because if the wall is topped by waves, then yes we'll get some sand loss due to scouring on the top... probaby 2,3,4 maybe 5 feet. The wall itself and all the anchors will still be intact. As the water rushes back, it simply goes OVER the wall.

You may be oversimplifying here. As the water is going OVER the wall the resulting force is to push the wall toward the Gulf. Is it large enough to deflect the wall any? I don?t know, but my thought is that it should be considered in the calculations.

It now becomes a SIMPLE statics exercise (as opposed to dynamics). Simply take the integral of the pressure up the entire wall. Assume the bottom of the wall (part below sealevel) is holding back half the pressure. The rest of the pressure is distributed to the anchoring system depending on their position and their angle.

Not really that difficult for an engineer.

Not that difficult for a qualified engineer. I don?t believe it can be brought down to a simple statics exercise. To do that would be to completely ignore the movement of the water by assuming everything is rigid. I really think that could be the flaw in the exercise. If I were you, I?d get a copy of the Corp?s of Engineers? Coastal Engineering Manual. I wouldn?t be surprised if your engineer had a copy of it.

I really don?t want to get into analyzing your wall in further detail and your engineer?s design for ethical reasons, I hope you understand. I applaud the effort you're taking into seeing that your seawall has been designed correctly. It sounds to me like your engineer may owe you some calculations, but having not been involved in detail I can?t really say. However, if you are going for a permanent structure permit you might want to be ready with them. See the CCCL construction permit application form.

editted to add:
PS: this may be of some help to you:
http://www.vulcanhammer.net/marine/
Coastal Engineering Manual

 

[Smiling JOe]

BMBV, So let's say that your wall is designed to take the beating of a big storm. What happens when your neighbors' walls fail, thus suffering severe damage eventually washing out the sand behind your wall. What will happen then?

I am not engineer or physics major, but I can speak a little common sense. It doesn't take a genius to look at the effects of the '04 and '05 storms and see the damage they caused, well before the arrival of the hurricanes which hit 90+ miles away from us. There will be no sand on the beach, much less in front of your wall if a big storm comes within 100 miles to our west when we are at high tide. In less than 5 hours and at least 12 hours prior to Hurr Dennis' arrival, the Gulf was eating away at the base of the bluffs. The dunes had been taken out by Ivan '04 and Arlene '05. Less than five hours, it took to move millions of cubic yards of sand, well before the storms arrivals which really did not hit close! Also, remember that Katrina was a Cat 3 when it made landfall.

If we get a Cat 3, 4, or 5 anywhere close to Destin, there will be many things to worry about, the least will be any destroyed retention wall or standing seawall. I am sure that some may stand and others will fall, and it will not all be due to the design or build. I have seen mobile homes which were ripped open and scattered for miles, yet all of the food in one cabinet was left untouched. Again, I may not speak with all the particular jargon of you guys in the know, but I have attended a few brainstorming sessions with people who are specialist at beach erosion. I feel like I have a fairly good grasp of Mother Nature, by spending much time with her, and I am not talking about sitting on the beach in Grayton.

It is great that you guys can speak on a intellectual basis, but what do all of those words mean? How are the majority of people stuck in this mess of seawalls supposed to know what the heck you two are talking about?

Again, it matters not how strong your link is in the chain, if your neighbors' link are the weakest. I wish everyone much success in their seawall nightmares. I know what walkovers look like jamming all of the beautiful, natural coastal lakes, but I think that I may be in for a shocker when, or if, the seawalls are added to all of those piles.

Continue your discussion. I don't know any more or less about seawalls in SoWal. When I do, I will gladly chime in with substance.

 

[BlueMtnBeachVagrant]

BMBV, it's been an interesting discussion. I appreciate your viewpoints, and your attempts at education where you deem necessary. However, as a lurker and outside observer, these impressions come across:

1. Calling others "Lightweights" who oppose your view, with fewer, shorter, or less impressive words. Foul! Purposefully or not, the inference comes across that you consider yourself a heavyweight. (which begs the question: by virtue of what?) To pull rank for whatever reason diminishes your case in point. Better perhaps to let the facts speak for themselves.

2. Saying in your first post that "we" are the government, (paraphrasing), and then saying in a later post that if we have a problem to take it up with our elected officials (paraphrasing), not those who would follow the rules. If we are the gov't (yes, we are), then let's face it, we all need to act in our best conscious for the generations to come, painful as that path may be at times. The beach is all of ours, not just gulf front owners. Seawalls are by all admissions a temporary solution, and statistically speaking, ultimately result in permanent erosion of the beach berm. And for what? To save a house that--by your admission-- would not survive the storm for which the wall was built in the first place? Your house may not survive, but the wall will. No house for you, no beach for everyone. Take one giant step back: Where's the logic?

That said, I completely appreciate your position of fiduciary responsibility. And I do understand your frustration at being painted in a negative light, when you are doing what you consider to be the best solution for you. The research you have put in is impressive. Put in your shoes I might consider doing the same--I'd have no choice but to consider putting up a sea wall. But first, I'd see if I could feasibly move my house further from the dune--an environmentally conscious solution. Second, I'd look into the option of pooling your wall money with other wall builders and fund renourishment of the beach instead. (This topic begs another tangent: why are GF owners so reticent to have public land in front of theirs? That's a disgusting level of greed that thankfully you have not demonstrated. But back to topic.) In other words, why not use your considerable skills to help organize and enact a long term solution that leaves a positive legacy? Me personally? I'd have to sell my GF house before I could put up a seawall...I could not stomach the thought that I might be contributing to the ultiamte loss of what I consider to be the most beautiful American beach. But I am a lightweight.

3. Ecopal came off as very reasonable, and your repeated attacks on him/her came off as defensive and petty. His/her questions were valid and on the minds of most of us. Why not address them (calmly, and without caps)?

I don't envy the position you're in. Once again, I appreciate --very much-- your posts. Lengthy and defensive as they often are, there's a lot of information contained within, and it's jumpstarted an intelligent debate.

Thumper? I thought I just spit out my mind altering drug called zoloft.

Wait...nope (as I reread), I see you're still "Thumper". I get really get mixed images when I see the handle, "Thumper". Boy are they mixed!! Now I'm laughing!! Now I'm crying!!! .... DAMN that zoloft !! I'm suing my doctor.

With a handle like that, no wonder you're just a lurker.

I'm just kidding....sorry.


thumper (CLEARING MY THROAT) You say
"1. Calling others "Lightweights" who oppose your view, with fewer, shorter, or less impressive words. Foul! Purposefully or not, the inference comes across that you consider yourself a heavyweight. (which begs the question: by virtue of what?) To pull rank for whatever reason diminishes your case in point. Better perhaps to let the facts speak for themselves."

My eyes are watering...I'm so sorry. When it comes to retaining walls, I AM a heavyweight. That's all I've done for months on end. That's why directly or indirectly people followed my lead. As a result we have spent approximately $600,000 for just the wall itself (yet another identity hint). I stuck out my neck with my own money and my own reputation (that's called putting your money where your mouth is). I am SO sick and tired of idiots belittling our efforts and results. I'm not "pulling rank" (you must be in the military and programmed to say that). Everyone here is free to speak their mind. They just BETTER DAMN WELL KNOW WHAT THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT BEFORE THEY START ATTACKING ME AND MY NEIGHBORS. If you get in the line of fire, EXPECT to get shot unless you know how to dodge bullets. How's that for military lingo???

thumper says:
"2. Saying in your first post that "we" are the government, (paraphrasing), and then saying in a later post that if we have a problem to take it up with our elected officials (paraphrasing), not those who would follow the rules. If we are the gov't (yes, we are), then let's face it, we all need to act in our best conscious for the generations to come, painful as that path may be at times. The beach is all of ours, not just gulf front owners. Seawalls are by all admissions a temporary solution, and statistically speaking, ultimately result in permanent erosion of the beach berm. And for what? To save a house that--by your admission-- would not survive the storm for which the wall was built in the first place? Your house may not survive, but the wall will. No house for you, no beach for everyone. Take one giant step back: Where's the logic? "

If we are continually hit with cat 2 or 3 storms, as we have been in the past, then WITHOUT a retaining wall (it's a retaining wall, Thumper, not a seawall), then our home doesn't stand a chance as it would fall due to erosion. This was the point I was making. When was the last time a cat 4 or 5 storm came directly through our area? I SAID WE WOULD NOT SURVIVE A CAT 4 or 5 and that then AND ONLY THEN would it not make a difference whether we had a wall or not. So far you're still a light weight.

Thumper then said
"Take one giant step back: Where's the logic?"

That's exactly what I'm talking about. Where is your logic? If we're hit with a cat 5, few if any homes will be left standing. Can you understand that logic or do I have to slow down?? ccccaaaat fiiiiiveee wiiiilll wieeeepppe us aaaawllllll out. Damn that zoloft.


"That said, I completely appreciate your position of fiduciary responsibility. And I do understand your frustration at being painted in a negative light, when you are doing what you consider to be the best solution for you. The research you have put in is impressive. Put in your shoes I might consider doing the same--I'd have no choice but to consider putting up a sea wall. But first, I'd see if I could feasibly move my house further from the dune--an environmentally conscious solution. Second, I'd look into the option of pooling your wall money with other wall builders and fund renourishment of the beach instead. (This topic begs another tangent: why are GF owners so reticent to have public land in front of theirs? That's a disgusting level of greed that thankfully you have not demonstrated. But back to topic.) In other words, why not use your considerable skills to help organize and enact a long term solution that leaves a positive legacy? Me personally? I'd have to sell my GF house before I could put up a seawall...I could not stomach the thought that I might be contributing to the ultiamte loss of what I consider to be the most beautiful American beach. But I am a lightweight."

OK, I sense a conciliatory tone here.

First there's no moving the building back without tearing it down. But believe it or not, I seriously considered rebuilding back but it would be almost impossible to get a consensus to do that in our little group. Economically, I'm convinced we would have come out ahead. Problem then is my neighbors would have walls and I would be the one subject to increased erosion.

Second, it's too late to pool our money for common protection and we couldn't come up with enough anyway to perform effective beach renourishment even IF you could get everyone to agree. Beach renourishment has to be done over a large expanse. Otherwise you're just paying for sand that will wash "downstream" to the unnourished areas and the people that didn't pay for it..

Third, I love to share my my beach with NICE people.

Fourth, if you owned GF property and you truly needed a wall as we did, you couldn't give (maybe that's an exageration) your property away until you brought it back up to some level of security greater than it would be otherwise without a wall.

Thumper says:
3. Ecopal came off as very reasonable, and your repeated attacks on him/her came off as defensive and petty. His/her questions were valid and on the minds of most of us. Why not address them (calmly, and without caps)?

I initially tried until his true colors came shining through. Geeze, if you think EChoEChoECho is reasonable as it pertains to this thread, you're a "lost cause". I use CAPs because some people are HARD OF HEARING, I mean understanding.

Now by "lost cause", I don't mean YOU are not capable of an intelligent debate (I see hints here and there). When your fellow soldier "kills himself", best to move on and look after one's self (oh man what's happnin' to me???... another military reference). Don't let ecopal drag you down. He's paranoid at best.

Thumper says:
"I don't envy the position you're in. Once again, I appreciate --very much-- your posts. Lengthy and defensive as they often are, there's a lot of information contained within, and it's jumpstarted an intelligent debate"

Now there you go again. You have succeeded in making me feel really really bad for some of the things I just said to you (even though you HAD to throw in "defensive" just now). ........
.....
.............
......
...
but I'm not taking any of it back!!

Thank you anyway for the POSITIVE comment that (at least) an intelligent debate was sparked.

I'm really a nice guy, who's downfall is always trying to please people. But there's no excuse for some of these posts as it pertains to a logical dialog as it applies to our retaining walls. IMHO. It is easier for me and my personality to "hide" behind a keyboard....but the facts and my views would be the same in person. I probably just wouldn't be quite as "snippy" as one poster said.

There's no excuse for some to lump all retaining walls into one class (that they will ALL fail and litter the beach).

There's no excuse for some to say (to the effect) that all GF owners don't care what happens to the beach.

There's no excuse for some that say all GF owners basically condone the use of dark sand.

Etc., etc., etc.

Yes, that's where I get defensive.

It truly is akin to class warfare in which like religion and abortion, no side will EVER recognize the other side as being right.



Give me a minute.... I'm stretching my fingers....



I know you took time to jump in all this. I DO appreciate that. Perhaps we'll eventually meet on some other common ground. But for now, I'm pretty much sticking to my guns (uh oh.... military lingo again!! Somebody shoot me!! Argh, again?....STOP me, please!!!!!) unless FACTS not FICTION that are presented in the course of this dialog change my mind.

Unfounded "attacks" on retaining walls, me and my neighbors won't.

Thanks.

 

[BlueMtnBeachVagrant]

<edited out because I just need to bite my lip instead...>

Cross fire is hell!!

 

[Snapper Grabber]

Smiling Joe,
It's always good to hear from you or Kurt because of your common sense and your knowledge of SoWal. Thank goodness that someone speaks with reason and simplicity.